•Churches: Worshippers in hiding
Churches: Worshippers in hiding

By Carla Hinton
Published: October 30, 2007

When the Rev. Leonel Blanco looks out into the pews of his south Oklahoma City church on Sundays, he sees only half the number of his predominantly Hispanic congregation.

Advertisement

Attendance at Blanco's Santa Maria Virgen, called the fastest-growing church in the Episcopal Diocese of Oklahoma, has dwindled sharply — a 50 percent decrease that Blanco blames on the Oklahoma immigration reform law that goes into effect Thursday. "Four months ago, this church was very full, but now the people are nervous. They don't like going out,” Blanco, a native of Guatemala, said in Spanish through an interpreter.

"I believe that the law should be there to protect and bring unity. Instead of getting us together, it's driving us apart.”

Blanco is not alone:

•More than 1,000 individually signed "Pledge of Resistance” letters from Sacred Heart Catholic Church members. The letters are expected to be presented to Gov. Brad Henry's office today. The pledge was drafted by a Quaker and Church of the Nazarene social justice leader as a faith response to HB 1804 and adopted by the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Oklahoma. The letters from Sacred Heart support a copy of the pledge initially presented to the governor last week.

•An Interfaith Vigil of Prayer and Solidarity for Undocumented Persons has been planned for Thursday.

•A Catholic priest says the law is unjust and sinful while an Episcopal clergyman likened the law to the vigilante justice of the Ku Klux Klan.

But state Rep. Randy Terrill, R-Moore, stands by HB 1804, the reform law he authored that has drawn the clergy's ire.

"I find it troubling that they would conveniently overlook the fact that providing services for undocumented persons with taxpayer funds is severely straining our social safety net for our own citizens. This is immoral,” he said.

The debate over the morality of the immigration reform law is picking up steam as its implementation date looms.

Religious leaders say immigrants have a right to migrate to improve their quality of life, but Terrill said it is not that simple.

‘A higher law' cited
The Rev. Anthony Taylor, pastor of Sacred Heart Catholic Church, 2706 S Shartel, said he considers the reform law to be sinful because it proposes to take away what he considers a God-given right of human dignity.

"People have a right to immigrate where circumstances so require. They do so as their God-given right,” he said.

Obeying the law is tantamount to sin, since "there's a higher law than civil law. We need to treat everyone with human dignity.”

The Rev. Michael Chapman, pastor of Holy Angels Catholic Church, 317 N Blackwelder, expressed similar sentiments.

"Illegality is not as important as the dignity of that (immigrant) family — you have the right to migrate to feed your family,” he said.

Blanco said some Hispanic immigrants believe they are losing the right to move freely because of an increase in racial profiling by the police.

"They are not terrorists,” Blanco said. "This discriminates. It seems to me like it's bringing the Ku Klux Klan again.”

Blanco and Chapman said most undocumented immigrants are hardworking and don't deserve to be shoved out of Oklahoma. Many, they said, want to work to feed their families and often send money back to their native land to support relatives.

"You don't see Latinos on the streets asking for money. They are working,” said Blanco. "We are demonstrating that we have a lot of dignity.”

Rex Friend, a Quaker and immigration law attorney, said according to his religious doctrine, HB1804 represents "harsh and cruel punishment of our brothers who had the happenstance to be born somewhere else.”

Terrill said the religious leaders don't understand the law.

"They dangerously confuse the concept of personhood and citizenship,” he said.

"I'm a conservative pro-life Republican. I believe you are a person at conception. While personhood comes with basic rights — the biggest is right to life — I believe that is an entirely different concept than being a U.S. citizen which occurs when you are born in the U.S. and with that citizenship, comes certain rights. There is no constitutional right for an unlawfully present foreign national to receive anything at taxpayer expense.”

Obeying whose authority?
By the clergymen's interpretation of the law, they will run the risk of becoming felons should they come to the aid of an illegal immigrant. However, each of them said the legislation will not change the way they serve their congregations.

"There's a higher law than civil law,” said Taylor, who leads the largest predominantly Hispanic congregation in the Oklahoma City Archdiocese.

He said based on this divine premise, the law may be met with civil disobedience akin to the 1960s civil rights movement.

"When it's a matter of justice, there's no question about it,” he said. "We're solidly on the side of the people whose rights are being violated.”

Chapman said the archdiocese's council of priests placed its support behind a "pledge of resistance” as a way to civilly express opposition to the law. The pledge, written by Friend and the Rev. Lance Schmitz, minister of social justice at Oklahoma City First Church of the Nazarene, was presented to Gov. Brad Henry's office Friday on behalf of Archbishop Eusebius Beltran and the priests' council.

Chapman said immigration reform is so emotionally charged that the priests who signed the pledge hoped it would cause everyone to consider all the law's implications.

"Making a statement at this time is a way for us to stand up and kind of like they are doing in California, putting water on the fire and calming people down,” he said.

Blanco, whose congregation at 2141 SW 25 has gone from about 300 to 125, said he has told immigrants not to leave the state out of fear. He said the doors of his church remain open and he will continue to help those in need.

Terrill said he thinks the religious leaders are well-intentioned in their concerns. He said to break the law, a person would have to knowingly transport, hire, harbor, house or conceal illegal immigrants and demonstrate reckless disregard for the law with some underlying commercial or financial gain at stake.

"If there's something that is purely religious, educational, charitable in nature or other humanitarian purpose, then that would not be included.”


Toolbar sponsored by: David Stanley Ford
Bookmark and Share



Comments

Thank you for joining our conversations on NewsOK.com. We encourage your discussions but ask that you stay within the bounds of our terms and conditions. Please help us by reporting comments that violate these guidelines. To review our rules of engagement, go to Commenting and posting policy.

Editor's note: It is not our intent to offer comments on crime or fatality stories.

Leave a comment. Log in below or sign up (it's free).

   
I guess I don't understand what the big deal is with becoming legal. Get your paperwork & get it in order if you want to stay. You should have done it right in the first place. Don't expect Americans to be too happy for you to be here when you run the Mexican flag up the flag pole & refuse to learn English so you can at least communicate. If Americans snuck across the Mexican border & ran the American flag up the pole, Mexico would think that we were beginning an act of war with them. They would grow weary of an illegal from America if we didn't learn the language and expect them to give us benifits of a citizen just because we were there. I don't think and I don't expect that Mexican citizenry would treat us any differently than we do if the shoe were on the other foot. In fact, I don't think that they would put up with it near as long as we have. The bottom line is, "Do it right. Abide by the law or go home."
HELEN, NOBLE - Oct 30, 2007 5:18 PM
Report as inappropriate
I grew up in Oklahoma and all of my family still lives there. I still consider myself an Oklahoman, even tho I moved to New York so my wife could live near her family during her mothers terminal illness. I am so proud of my home state for passing this bill. It is beyond me why so many people want to take up for those who break our laws in coming here and then have the audacity to get welfare and as much public assistance as possible. I now live in a city with immigrants and illegal aliens from all over the globe and I hate it. I can't wait to move back home. I am SO proud of my home state for passing this bill. Right Is Right. I don't care how people try to wrangle the words around. Illegal aliens have no business being here and Americans that put out a big welcome sign for them are just as much in the wrong. Illegal aliens commit NUMEROUS felonies by being here. Its about time somebody stood up to them and all these groups that bully. Stand by your guns, Oklahoma.~Proud Okie.
Jeremy, Forest Hills - Oct 30, 2007 4:49 PM
Report as inappropriate
Larry you are absolutly right...it is about the law and a disregard for it. Now they are HIDING? I don't understand why so many want to take up for people who are breaking the law!
WeNdE, OkLaHoMa CiTy - Oct 30, 2007 3:01 PM
Report as inappropriate
There are many good points in this thread & many displays of ignorance. There is really no dispute. It's sad that people have put their families in the position to be torn apart because they did not have the integrity to do things right to begin with. Thank goodness America (or at least Oklahoma) is finally cleaning up. God blesses those who honor him and his word, regardless of where they live. He does not honor dishonesty, cheating, lying to get things the easy way. Immigrants need to do it the right way or go home and change things there - simple as that. By the way Fernando...if you really believe the things you've said - I hope you find salvation before you pass on.
Cari, Yukon - Oct 30, 2007 2:27 PM
Report as inappropriate
If the churches want to help criminals then they should be taxed for every cent they get.Just like any
other buisness.and looking at the track record,possibly, in 10-20 years we will be hearing about sex abuse lawsuits.
UR MASTER, Del City - Oct 30, 2007 2:21 PM
Report as inappropriate
I really don't think this topic of discussion is about eating right or obesity ! Everyone on here is entitled to their own opinions & that is what makes America -- America !!!
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Oct 30, 2007 1:09 PM
Report as inappropriate
Mikki not once in any of my posts did I ever mention the word white or the word fat. And the word is obese. Oklahomans are overweight not because we are poor it is because we eat too much. We make terrible food choices. Also there is a fast food joint on every corner.And Mikki dont ever insert you own assumptions and words into my posts. I believe you do so just to attempt to sway someone that hasnt actually read one of them. Now go back and actually read my posts.
amy, oklahoma city - Oct 30, 2007 1:01 PM
Report as inappropriate
Mikki not once in any of my posts did I ever mention the word white or the word fat. And the word is obese. Oklahomans are overweight not because we are poor it is because we eat too much. We make terrible food choices. Also there is a fast food joint on every corner.And Mikki dont ever insert you own assumptions and words into my posts. I believe you do so just to attempt to sway someone that hasnt actually read one of them. Now go back and actually read my posts.
amy, oklahoma city - Oct 30, 2007 1:00 PM
Report as inappropriate
No Fernando they would not have broken the law. They knew that they could come to America the legal way. They would not have snuck in illegally. America has a moto: Give me your tired, your poor,Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these — the homeless, tempest-tossed — to me; I lift my lamp beside the Golden Door. My grandparents took that to heart and came. However, they understood their responsibility to follow the laws of their adopted country and do it LEGALLY! They did this out of respect. DO NOT presume to know my families moral standings and say my grandparents would hve ever broken the law! And you assumed my grandparents were jews. They were Polish CATHOLIC!!!!!!

Mikki, Oklahoma City - Oct 30, 2007 12:53 PM
Report as inappropriate
Our state will not be safe until all the pastors are classified as felons. Sounds like Okie justice to me.
Kevin, Shawnee - Oct 30, 2007 12:51 PM
Report as inappropriate
Robin- I hate getting into topics like this, but it is your private life. You want to be a catholic then follow what it preaches, otherwise you are not a true catholic.
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 12:51 PM
Report as inappropriate
Your grandparents would have came here any way if the US weren't accepting anyone. I don't think anyone could have done anything. Even Catholics were kill when they tried to help the Jews.
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 12:46 PM
Report as inappropriate
Your grandparents would have came here any way if the US weren't accepting anyone. I don't think anyone could have done anything. Even Catholics were kill when they tried to help the Jews.
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 12:45 PM
Report as inappropriate
Fernando, In response to your comment to me , I am not using birth control as I have no need for it & I am glad that you are educating youself with a third language . If I go live in another country I will learn the language of that country, but right now I know the language of this one, I follow my heart & not what the Catholic church tells me to do, I feel no need to confess my sins to a priest when I can speak to the lord & do it on my own. Fernando you can be Catholic & disagree with what they are doing . I do not think breaking the law is right & if that makes me a bad Catholic then so be it crucify me !!!
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Oct 30, 2007 12:41 PM
Report as inappropriate
Amy, Look at your research. Oklahomans are ranked #15 in obesity because we are a poor state. Last year we were ranked 5th in the United States for having the most children who go to bed hungry. Those issues had NOTHING to do with race, but wih POVERTY! Poverty knows no racial boundaries. You made the assumption that all these fat people are white. What an ignorant remark. Educate yourself. Fernando, yes it is the churches place to help those in need, however is it their place to harbor criminals? If so then why didnt the Catholic Church shelter my grandparents when the Nazis came for them and they were forced to flee Poland. Even then they came into this country legally! Why is this suddenly a race issue? It addresses illegal immigrants not Mexicans. I am suddenly a racist because I believe people should come into this country legally. God knows my grandparents did! Why shouldnt all others have too? Wouldnt it follow that this group of immigrants are asking for special dispensation because they are the largest group of immigrants entering our country illegally.Oh and by the way have your social security number stolen and sold to an illegal so that they can legally work in this country and tell me its ok because the person who stole it (or bought it on the black market) is a hard working illegal immigrant who only wants to better themselves. Lets look at making the legalization process less expensive. Better yet lets look at the lawyers who "convince" immigrants that they cannot go through the process without first hiring them and then "milk" them for legal fees;or the organizations that promise help,apply for federal aid and then sit on it for their own gain.
Mikki, Oklahoma City - Oct 30, 2007 12:38 PM
Report as inappropriate
Sandra, if an infant was brought here, undocumented, I think he/she would know it before they turned 18, 19, or 40. You must have a birth certificate to start school, get a driver's license, or a marriage license. These people aren't dumb, just illegal. .......Do the people with Spanish names elect someone to argue with everyone else each time this comes up? This time it's Fernando, the last one was Carlos. BTW, Fernando, Robin didn't say she TOOK birth control pills, just that she didn't like the church telling her she couldn't, and I don't believe she was being insulting.
Jackie, moore - Oct 30, 2007 12:28 PM
Report as inappropriate
Also Marie, you as Catholic should listen to the Pope.
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 12:21 PM
Report as inappropriate
Also Marie, you as Catholic should listen to the Pope.
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 12:19 PM
Report as inappropriate
No, the government gave you that right. Religion should supercede government law. In my case I am Catholic before anything else.
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 12:16 PM
Report as inappropriate
Does any of this sound like Germany pre-WW II?
John, Oklahoma City - Oct 30, 2007 12:15 PM
Report as inappropriate
Fernando, is it our Christian duty to help others break the law? What would Christ say about that...I know that the law calls that aiding and abetting.
Marie, Oklahoma City - Oct 30, 2007 12:15 PM
Report as inappropriate
Fernando, Enid: I grew up in the same parish as Fr. Wolf and I know that he and the rest of the church believes that they are performing a humanitarian act however, God has given me the right to disagree. These people have broken the law of this country and that has a consequence as does any other crime. I am not saying we should execute them but they need to pay restitution for the crime. There is a process and THE PROCESS SHOULD BE ADHERED TO...IF IT ISN'T, THEN PAY THE PRICE OF DEPORTATION AND/OR BECOME LEGAL.
Marie, Oklahoma City - Oct 30, 2007 12:11 PM
Report as inappropriate
I'm curious to see what happens to our crime statistics in 2008. I believe most illegals are good folks (for criminals) but I also believe that a lot of felonies are committed by the bad ones. Also this law should indirectly improve our economy and more jobs will decrease crime.
Anton, OKC - Oct 30, 2007 12:09 PM
Report as inappropriate
Robin- How about you learn spanish? I know two languages and hope to learn a third one.
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 11:49 AM
Report as inappropriate
This issue isn't simply a legal or govenmental issue; it is a human rights issue. Think of what happens to families when one parent is undocumented, or worse when both parents are undocumented and the children are citizens. What about the child brought here as an infant who is now 18, 19 or 40 years old and undocumented but never knew that he was not a citizen? What about the elderly who followed their family members, not knowing the laws of the land or that what they were doing wasn't legal? We must consider the humanitarian, moral and ethical ramifications of this bill. That is what the churches--be they Catholic, Nazarene, Quaker, Episcopalian, or any other denomination--must consider. It's not just the Catholic churches that are taking a stand! They're joined by a number of other churches. And they're guided by Catholic Social Teaching, which most Catholics have never studied.
sandra, shawnee - Oct 30, 2007 11:49 AM
Report as inappropriate
You a Catholic, good. Then well,why are you using birth control? You are just a hypocrite and you are right I am not perfect. Like i said before I am not an illegal. Just because I support illegal it DOES NOT make me an illegal.
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 11:45 AM
Report as inappropriate
Fernando, after your last post about not wanting to learn the english Language, I have to assume you just do not want to do anything that may better you or your people . No one said change your culture & yes you are having a hard time communicating because you do have a language barrier & it does make you less productive if you are struggling to read or write the language, as it slow's you down. It cost us money to have to have everything written in spanish & it upset's most who were born here to have to push 1 for english I hope you get the concept !!!
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Oct 30, 2007 11:41 AM
Report as inappropriate
OK NOW TERRILL IS TALKING OUT OF BOTH SIDES OF HIS MOUTH. THE LAW SAYS IF YOU KNOWINGLY DO THESE THINGS NOW HE IS SAYING ITS OK IF IT IS FOR RELIGIOUS, EDUCAIONAL OR CHARITABLE. I THINK HE NEEDS TO GET THE LAW STRAIGHT THAT HE WROTE. JUST MAYBE ALL HE WANTED WAS HIS NAME IN THE PAPER AND ON TV, WELL HE GOT THAT AND NOW MAYBE IT ISN'T WHAT HE WANTED SINCE HE IS GETTING BAD PUBLICITY. TERRILL GET YOUR STORY STRAIGHT, IT IS AGAINST THE LAW OR NOT.
sue, seminole - Oct 30, 2007 11:37 AM
Report as inappropriate
Fernando, I have prayed for you every since I saw your first post & I wish you nothing but the very best Hell I am even willing to help you find a way to get your problem solved & help you get your people legal, BUT PLEASE DO NOT TELL ME HOW TO ACT ABOUT THE CATHOLICS I AM ONE & THEY ARE NOT PERFECT & SHOULD NOT BE INJECTING ANYTHING INTO THIS ! You believe & have your faith but there is no place in government for the church! And if you care about the hispanic people then you lead the way & help them to become legal so that they can reap the benefits that they deserve instead of settling for the crumbs that that a few greedy employers throw them!!! Fernando illegal is illegal it is our law for you to enter legally & is not meant to be ignored because it's inconvenient!
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Oct 30, 2007 11:31 AM
Report as inappropriate
Danny- I cannot believe what you said and call ypurself a man of great faith. I don't believe the government has the right to teach a language I don't want to learn. Any one can be product learning any language English or not.
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 11:28 AM
Report as inappropriate
No one is saying that the churches cannot minister to these people and no one is stopping churches from feeding and clothing and sheltering them, which is the job of the church. I am a man of great faith, but also believe that people of all creeds should obey the laws of the United States. Illegal immigrants are just that, illegal. Does it make them less than human, no, but they are here in this country illegally and Oklahoma should not have to foot the bill for assistance. It is absurd that an person who is here illegally can get state assistance. Churches should provide for these people and no one is saying that they can't, but the welfare coffers of this and every other state is already overloaded with citizens who cannot or won't carry their own weight. When will it come crashing down? This country was built on the hard work of immigrants, I understand that, but it was built on legal immigrants. There is a process for coming to this country legally and if that process is followed, then I have no problem with legal immigrants. How many millions of dollars does the language barrier cost the government and industry because these immigrants refuse to learn english. The immigrants that built this country embraced America and learned the language so they could become productive citizens and waived the American flag proudly. They didn't give up their culture, but they did assimilate into ours which has created the unique America that we know. America was called the melting pot because of all the different nations and cultures represented. It was called the melting pot because the immigrants became productive, english speaking members of the USA. Simply put, these immigrants did what it took to become part of America and were not a burden on the society. They couldn't have been since there was no system in place early on to sustain these people. It was either be productive or starve. A language barrier is always either expensive or slows production. If you want to stay in the USA......at the very least learn to speak english. Compassion is one thing and churches should have compassion on these people, but not encourage lawlessness. I heard more than one person say that there is a higher law than civil law and there is, but I also read where Jesus said, render unto God what is God's and unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar. Even our Savior respected the law of the land.
danny, shawnee - Oct 30, 2007 11:01 AM
Report as inappropriate
Robin- Please don't insult Catholics for their beliefs.
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 10:59 AM
Report as inappropriate
I am a white Catholic woman & I have no ill feelings' toward these people, but I BELIEVE , the Catholic church needs to stay out of this ! I hated it when you told me I can't take birth control & I hate this , We are a land of law's & who the hell does the Catholic church think they are? It is your job to give spiritual Guidance not lead a protest !!!
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Oct 30, 2007 10:43 AM
Report as inappropriate
Actually that is what it is about because ultimately we must find people who are willing to do this kind of hard work and as it is we dont have those necessary replacements. And maybe just maybe this reverend is concerned about his parishioners. Cynicism is hurtful.
amy, oklahoma city - Oct 30, 2007 10:40 AM
Report as inappropriate
I honestly don't care whether we lose weight or not.. that was your point. Let me make this more clear.. it isn't about whether they pay taxes or not.. it's about whether we want to subsidize this group of illegals.. And I guess you just don't want to admit.. they broke the law.. they knew it when they came here. Now if you are as caring as you say, then why don't you adopt "financialy" a family or two to go back home and help them get back here legally. Oh. not that caring huh ? Easier to use my money to do it. And Robin.. very good.. it's about local churches wanting money kept here. Very selfish in essence maybe?
Mike, Oklahoma City - Oct 30, 2007 10:33 AM
Report as inappropriate
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Oct 30, 2007 10:26 AM
Report as inappropriate
The church issue just cracks me up, is your church going to go out of business because of illegal aliens staying away ? These people will worship be it in your church or in their own home country, you are only worried about the donations!!!!
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Oct 30, 2007 10:26 AM
Report as inappropriate
Do you honestly believe that by ridding ourselves of illegal immigrants that we are all of a sudden going to lose weight and magically become able to do this manual labor? Do you think that Oklahomans are going to give up their food and their television just so they can be able to roof their home? Yes it is about taxes because that has been one of the main arguments in favor of this bill. Dont you think that if illegal immigrants were actually taking the jobs that Americans could do that the unemployment rate would soar?
amy, oklahoma city - Oct 30, 2007 10:24 AM
Report as inappropriate
There really isn't a good argument in this debate. They are here illegaly. That's the law. They knew it when they came. Isn't this an easy one?
Mike, Oklahoma City - Oct 30, 2007 10:17 AM
Report as inappropriate
I agree Fernando. I want to help anybody who is packing a moving truck this week, for any reason. Seriously though, I have a close friend who is married to an illegal. I do help them both in any way I can. She and he understand how I feel about illegals but also that I want to help. I want her kids to succeed in life. White people, like me, want minorities to succeed more than anyone because if they are successful they earn more and contribute more to society. That is good for everyone.
Anton, OKC - Oct 30, 2007 10:16 AM
Report as inappropriate
It isn't about taxes.. Don't you get it? Immigration isn't about letting in who can pay the most in taxes.. or who will work at jobs we may.. or may not want. Actually you make the argument for removing the illegals.. If we are obese and sedentary, then when there is nobody else to climb up on the roof, we will have to do it ourselves. Hmm.. I wonder who did these jobs before we had such cheap labor? Just a thought
Mike, Oklahoma City - Oct 30, 2007 10:14 AM
Report as inappropriate
It is our Christian duty to help others in need
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 10:09 AM
Report as inappropriate
Mike illegal immigrants pay taxes but do not file and receive those taxes back. Believe me they make far more money than what you think and by hard labor also. I have read several posts and articles from this very newspaper about how company owners cannot find good dependable LEGAL workers and the wages that they are willing to pay are more than adequate. You just dont want to admit that Americans have grown lazy and are definitely unappreciative of our circumstances. On the list of most sedentary cities we are ranked #15!! 63% of Oklahomans are either overweight or obese!! I dont think that we could climb up on a roof, lift a heavy span or clean twenty hotel rooms if we wanted. Dont you think that if illegal immigrants were taking jobs that Americans wanted that the unemployment rate would soar?
amy, oklahoma city - Oct 30, 2007 10:07 AM
Report as inappropriate
Then help them come in the right way... don't be an enabler.. Let them be proud that they did it the right way. I truly believe that not anyone on this post hates or dislikes Hispanics.. No matter how good they are.. how much we like them.. we need to see that they are here the right way.. then EVERYONE will feel proud. It isn't about taxes... it isn't about love or caring for ones neighbors.. it's about doing things the right way
Mike, Oklahoma City - Oct 30, 2007 10:03 AM
Report as inappropriate
It is our Christian duty to help others in need
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 9:55 AM
Report as inappropriate
Fernando, read the bill. It does not effect immigrants at all. It deals with "illegal immigrants". We don't care what color they are. Yes I know what a Tax Identification Number is. That doesn't change the math.
Anton, OKC - Oct 30, 2007 9:53 AM
Report as inappropriate
This HB is being aimed at the hispanic w/out saying that is. Terrill wanted to come up w/ an idea to get rid of the hispanics in the state, but at what cost? At the cost getting every immigrant out of the state including every race not just hispanics.
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 9:48 AM
Report as inappropriate
Marie, have you ever met Father Wolf? He is doing what is just.
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 9:46 AM
Report as inappropriate
Father Wolf and his helpers are aiding and abetting criminals. Bottom line.
Marie, Oklahoma City - Oct 30, 2007 9:43 AM
Report as inappropriate
Anton, have you heard of TIN?
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 9:35 AM
Report as inappropriate
Anton, have you heard of TIN?
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 9:32 AM
Report as inappropriate
Thank you Sandra you have proved a point. The problem is not in illegal immigration. The problem in Oklahoma is meth. not illegal immigration. This is one of the reasons that pseudoephedrine had to be controlled. I worked at a convinance store and most of my customers were druggies. They would come in and try to buy junk food w/ food stamps. What were there race? I can tell you not one was hispanic. Most hispanic just come in to be phone cards. To summarize my point, most illegal immigrants don't have or will not accept government assistance and those who abuse it are not hispanic.
Fernando, Enid - Oct 30, 2007 9:29 AM
Report as inappropriate
Well must you all know,, IT IS the Church's responsibiltiy to stand up for the community and people of God. To the contrary, Jesus said to His disciples: "In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world" (John 16:33). He also said, "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you" (John 15:18-19).
God's people have never been a popular or powerful force. Jesus describes their lot in life: "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it" (Matthew 7:13-14, NRSV).
Yes, only a few are willing to follow all the teachings of Jesus Christ once they hear and understand them. Jesus comforted His disciples, "Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom" (Luke 12:32).
God reveals that His people will be a little flock in this age. He is calling only a few to be the living examples of His way of life to the rest of world.
Jesus says to His true disciples, "You are the light of the world . . . Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven" (Matthew 5:14-16).
God commissioned the Church to set the example of His way
of life to the world. God is exposing humanity to His ways through the Church. Peter exhorts the members of the Church: "Conduct yourselves honorably among the Gentiles, so that, though they malign you as evildoers, they may see your honorable deeds and glorify God when he comes to judge" (1Peter 2:12, NRSV).
prince, spencer - Oct 30, 2007 9:29 AM
Report as inappropriate
Thank you Sandra!!
amy, oklahoma city - Oct 30, 2007 9:27 AM
Report as inappropriate
Sandra, how much do you really thing illegals pay in taxes. Keep in mind they don't make much. When I was in that position I payed about $2000 a year. It costs us twice that to put a kid in school for a year. So if Immigrant X pays taxes and has 2 kids in our schools the deficit is $6000 and that is only the schooling. I'm tired of the "They pay taxes" BS. THe scam is over, go home.
Anton, OKC - Oct 30, 2007 9:25 AM
Report as inappropriate
Amy... arrogance? Well then... you tell me.. how many people should we let come into the country illegaly? 10 million? 20 million? unlimited? are you just plain goofy? Maybe you think we should do away with immigration laws and hell.. let anyone and everyone come on in. Do you believe in the some kind of "get in, stay in" policy? There are lots of asians that would love that policy, on wait,,they don't complain and work for below poverty wages.. Come on.. use your head..
Mike, Oklahoma City - Oct 30, 2007 9:18 AM
Report as inappropriate
I'm appalled at racist, anti-Catholic, sentiment posted on this comments page! I'm white and not Catholic--which, by the way, is a Christian church and which started the whole Christian thing along with the Orthodox--, and I stand in solidarity with the many Christians and other people of faith who oppose this bill. One poster submitted numbers on how much undocumented workers cost in government services. What was not posted was how much they pay in taxes, or how much other groups cost in government services. Let's see the whole picture. And the churches are teaching the Bible by their very actions in opposition to injustice. Thank you to the poster who quoted Exodus! Love of neighbor does not mean just loving "people like us"; rather, it is directed toward the widow, the orphan, the outcast, the stranger.
sandra, shawnee - Oct 30, 2007 9:13 AM
Report as inappropriate
Sandra I believe Ronald already proved you wrong. They are coming here illegally, by definition making them criminals. They are taking social services and medical care making them thieves. They DO NOT contribute to our society in any positive manner. I believe it is immoral to take your money in taxes and give it to them. If you want to be voluntarily charitable go ahead but don't force me to. I already have mouths to feed.
Anton, OKC - Oct 30, 2007 9:13 AM
Report as inappropriate
Hispanics/undocumented workers are not the ones putting a strain on our social services! Do they use them, sometimes, but not to the extent that some other folks do. The application of this bill is clearly racist profiling. And the language of the bill is ambiguous as to what aid is or is not permitted. Furthermore, it's asking state and healthcare providers to serve as gate-keepers and immigration agents. And as families are torn apart and children and spouses who are citizens are left without the support of husbands/dads, what's going to happen to our social services? And where are we going to detain the undocumented folk until INS can process them and deport them? Let the really bad folks out of jail to make room? Someone was very short-sighted.
sandra, shawnee - Oct 30, 2007 9:05 AM
Report as inappropriate
I think that I would take an illegal immigrant who attends church every Sunday over an American that does not. I think that it is hilarious how people are calling these worshipping people criminals. How many of you have never broken the law or any law for that matter in your lives? The stones sure are flying in Oklahoma!!!!!
amy, oklahoma city - Oct 30, 2007 9:04 AM
Report as inappropriate
Wow L.W. you actually believe that Jesus would say all of that!!! I doubt if he would say one must fly the American flag above all others. Laughable. Maybe to you he would say do unto others. I love the arrogance of America!!!
amy, oklahoma city - Oct 30, 2007 9:00 AM
Report as inappropriate
I hope the following 14 reasons are forwarded over and over again until they are read so many times that the reader gets sick of reading them. I have included the URL's for verification of the following facts.

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77
2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html
5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html
9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the UShttp://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html
11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine and marijuana, crossed into the U.S.from the Southern border. Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht
12. The National Policy Institute, 'estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.'
http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf
13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin.
http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm
14. 'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States '.http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtmlThe total cost is a whooping $338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR


If this doesn't bother you then just delete the message, but on the other hand, if it does raise the hair on the back of your neck, then forward it to every human in the country including every representative in Washington, DC four time a week for a month.
Become an Activist, Take part in your Government, VOTE!
Ronald, Oklahoma City - Oct 30, 2007 8:53 AM
Report as inappropriate
Bottom line here is the church needs to stay out of it and not get involved with the immagration issue and stick with Biblical issues.which this is not.The only reason they are getting involved is that it is geting into thier budget and that is wrong, they don't care about the issue its only the money.The church is there to help its members when they are in need and when the less fortunate come to the door needing help and members of the church are to serve,not to see if the chucrch can help them if they are illegal.And about the comment from margret,I would not want to attend your church if its getting involved in illegal issues.The people in here is not so much being hateful, its just were are tired of the issue of the flow of illegals coming to Oklahoma and gripping about how the are being mistreated and involving the church to come to thier aid when they are are here illegally anyway.I don;t care what country they come from go through the right channels to become citizens are go back where you come from.
west, okla - Oct 30, 2007 8:52 AM
Report as inappropriate
I wonder how Blanco feels about the fact that fully ½ of his parishioners were criminals.
Anton, OKC - Oct 30, 2007 8:44 AM
Report as inappropriate
Margaret, I think Jesus would tell the immigrants to do it the right way, learn the language, quit flying the Mexican flag above the American flag and quit complaining about how badly they are treated here - or just go home.
LW, Oklahoma City - Oct 30, 2007 8:22 AM
Report as inappropriate
Does God not like Mexico? What's wrong with illegal immigrants going back to their countries of origin? Or, what's wrong with illegal immigrants doing it the right way and becoming legal? Does God not like those ideas? Maybe America would embrace illegal immigrants more if they came here in good faith, learned the language and stopped trying to force their "culture" down our throats. If their culture is so great, go home! Surely, God would approve of that?
LW, Oklahoma City - Oct 30, 2007 8:21 AM
Report as inappropriate
Some of the posters on this board are Christians in name only. What would Jesus say about all this if he were alive today? Do you think God has blessed you with the good life here in America and that all the poor people in this world do not count in his eyes? I would be ashamed to set foot in any church if I had the hateful attitudes of the people on this forum.
Margaret, Holdenville - Oct 30, 2007 8:19 AM
Report as inappropriate
To Carol who said anyone who uses God to further the cause of illegal immigration is a "reprobate". I guess Moses would be a reprobate if he were alive today. Moses, who some scholars say wrote the book of Exodus, said in Exodus 22:21, "Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt."(NIV). By the way I am not Catholic. There are also Protestants who care about how people are treated. And by the way Phil, showing mercy for people is not a political issue. It is a Christian issue for those of us who profess Christ as our Savior. I have to say in our centennial year here in Oklahoma it is very disturbing to see such hateful comments toward people who are different from us white anglos. Every day, there is some article in this paper that illicits hateful comments either toward Muslims or Latinos. What does it solve to defame people? It's one thing to debate the problem of illegal immigration and another to act so hateful toward Latinos or anyone who speaks up for them. The comments seem to infer if you are a Latino (illegal or not) or a Muslim you are not welcome in Oklahoma and that is a shame. That is the attitude why so many people in our country will not live here.
David, Norman - Oct 30, 2007 8:07 AM
Report as inappropriate
The illegal aliens--is that PC?--might have a right to immigrate to feed their family, but they also have an obligation to become legal, pay taxes and learn to speak English just as the rest of the citizens do. And since when do they have rights as a non-citizen? Why aren't these churches helping them to become legal? Will the ministers hiding these people be arrested for aiding and abetting a criminal? They should be.
Jackie, moore - Oct 30, 2007 7:52 AM
Report as inappropriate
It has been a free ride for the Catholic Church in the USA because the government has provided the public services that made it possible for illegal immigration to happen. Now that the services are cut off, the church has refused to offer these services via free clinics which would be perfectly legal under this law. Even in Mexico the church has failed their own people horribly. In the Mexico City earthquake the local Catholic churches refused to let people get help at local parishes. As a total irony, it was the Mormons, Baptists, and other out-of-country religious organizations that saved the Mexican people. Only after months of relief did the Roman Catholic Church finally get mad enough to force the Mexican government to kick these organizations out of the country. Many of these groups left equipment in Mexico so people could still purify water, cook meals, and provide medical care.
John, Stigler - Oct 30, 2007 7:33 AM
Report as inappropriate
If the church is so worried about the living conditions of the Hispanic people, perhaps it should look at the opulent churches that exist amid slums and consider the contrast.
As far as breaking the law to feed one's family is concerned, I understand but I do not understand someone in the church hierarchy supporting illegal measures as a moral choice.
The right to life as a "person" does not include the right to do as one pleases, especially when others are paying for those rights. If one wants to live or work in the US or even become a citizen, they should do it the way everyone else has, work for it. It seems perhaps these "hardworking" people are not as ready to actually put forth the effort to obtain what they want but rather take it as if it were a sacrament. With the church supporting them (emotionally, not financially), it becomes one.
One final thought, since the church wants to be involved in politics, it should be taxed just like any other business.
Phil, Yukon - Oct 30, 2007 7:16 AM
Report as inappropriate
Taylor, Chapman, and Blanco, it is your Bishop of Rome who says you have the right to migrate across borders.
The Pope is NOT GOD, no matter what the Vatican says.

The God of the Bible split the people of the world into language groups, which became nations (Genesis 11:1-9). Nowhere in the Bible does God grant anyone the right to unlawfully enter a country not their own.

A mass invasion is an act of war.

You "religious leaders" are lying to your people in the name of God!!! Do you think He will not call you to account?

Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying falsehood in My name. I have neither sent them nor commanded them nor spoken to them; they are prophesying to you a false vision, divination, futility and the deception of their own minds." (Jeremiah 14:14)

"'But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die." (Deuteronomy 18:20)
Brian, Sumter - Oct 30, 2007 5:55 AM
Report as inappropriate
Of course this church and the catholic churches are protesting..... where do people think they're getting their tithes from? Greed. It has nothing to do with humanity/christianity. Last I checked, the bible also had a commandment that said render unto caesar what is caesar's. God does not promise nor owe living in America to anyone, let alone those here illegally. As a matter of fact, anyone who uses God to further illegal immigration is a reprobate of the worst sort.
Carol, Tuttle - Oct 30, 2007 2:31 AM
Report as inappropriate
This law isn't racist! I have read it and defy anyone to show me one word or phrase that singles out ANY race or ANY nation. The only people it discriminates against are people who are breaking the law. What part of ILLEGAL does everyone not understand?
Larry, Oklahoma City - Oct 30, 2007 1:17 AM
Report as inappropriate