I find much of this talk about how Gundy and OSU made an error in taking a chance on Collins both amusing and unsettling. In our system of government, the accussed is to be considered INNOCENT until they either confess guilt or are proven guilty. Implied in this assumption is the right to continue leading a somewhat normal life (within reason, based upon the crime, flight risk etc) until guilt is either proven or confessed. This is even more important for juveniles accussed of crimes.

When these principles are violated, the consequences for the accussed can be devastating. One has only to look at the case of Mr Jewel who was accussed of the Olympic bombing in Atlanta. He was tried, convicted, and ruined in the media while being completely innocent. He has recently died.

I've told you people I'm through with this forum! I've said my piece, now it's time to move on! People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks!

MARY YOU ARE A FRIGGIN IDIOT.WHERE WAS THIS SCUMBAG ON SUNDAY MORNING WHEN THAT RAPE OCCURRED. O SHE WAS NOT A PRETEEN.MIGHT HAVE BEEN TO OLD FOR HIM.

Jennifer that's my whole point! This is the "Sports Section" of the Daily Oklahoman. This girl or her age doesn't belong to be dragged into the Sports Section of the Daily Oklahoman! Oklahoma State doesn't deserve to be villified by these vagabond sports writers in the sports section of the Daily Oklahoman who only see this as an opportunity through their crimson colored glasses to bash a State University for recruiting a kid when all the facts were unknown at the time he was recruited. Everyone knew he had a court date pending. Kind of like their Friday afternoon golf rounds these guys couldn't wait to tee off on OSU when the guilty plea was summoned. This article should not have been written by Berry Tramel in the sports section of the Daily Oklahoman any more than Jenni Carlson's column on Bobby Reid. This article belongs in Local and State where all the facts could be derived and an experienced and impartial journalist report the facts. These people are just mean, plain and simple! They hate OSU and will go to any length to discredit the University while glazing over anything wrong an OU player does with a feather duster! Jennifer, did you just pick up on this through this forum or do you even realize that this is the Sports Section of the Daily Oklahoman?

Berry I mean.

Way to go Barry!

Can anyone at The Oklahoman actually do any reporting and get any facts using real sources? I don't think so.

Mary, can you not see this case for what it is? Is football and your respective school that important to you that you are wholly incapable of separating this person and what he has done from his status on the team? Talk about mixed-up priorities.

Let me tell you something Barton! You can draw an imaginary line straight across the entire state of Oklahoma, we'll call it I-40, and the IQ goes up ten fold once you get to the North side of that imaginary line! That's just the way it is! I'm not belittling your little oasis in the sun, I'm just saying that all the jobs and all the educational facilities in this great state are North of I-40!

For those that keep pressing the issue in defense of Mr. Collins, especially in regards to the "only five years" apart line, just where do we draw that line? If she were 13, and he 18, would that still be okay? What if she were 14 and he 19? Better yet, what if she were 11 and he 16, or she 10 and he 15? There are ages where certain activities are appropriate, and ages where they are not. The bottom line was, the "older" person in the room that day needed to proceed with caution, and if that meant to ask for a driver's license, or to use common sense in good judgment so as not to BREAK THE LAW, then that's where the fault lies, regardless of what her parents did or did not do, or what position she put herself into. Collins and the other 2 KNEW BETTER. BOTTOM LINE. They could have said no. They did not. Case closed.

Thank GOD mary is done (crosses my fingers). i really dont understand how some peaple can take up for a sick pedo like collins. And what is so funny about mary is that she tries to put down the sooners knowing how bad the sooners have kicked the cowboys in the balls all these years. And you talk about Idabel. Is that the best you can do to get back at someone? lol...you really suck. Can't wait to watch Kansas give the cow-mulesters a good butt kicking. And thats all i have to say about this....BOOMER SOONER.

The girl was 12 and the boy was 17. 14 is the legal consenting age in Texas. Therefore she could not legally consent and he was absolutely guilty as he pleaded. It doesn't matter if she was running around with a 15 year old girlfriend and said she was 15 or 16. He was a junior in H.S. and she in 7th or 8th grade. There is no need for either side of this ridiculous debate to stretch the truth saying she was in 6th grade or he a senior or that she was almost 13 and he barely 17. The facts are the facts and guilt is clear. While we won't be able to lose sight of the fact she was 12, we also won't lose sight of the fact he was also 17 and still a boy and is likely being legally judged as one. While none of us know the mitigating evidence that led the jury to recommend 5 years probation, I know I've read at least one of the other males was an adult and the person responsible for supplying alcohol and the hotel room. Surely he will be judged harsher as someone has to pay more than 5 years of probation for what happened to this girl regardless of her background. It appears Collins may have had a previous relationship with the girl and possibly the prom night sex was consentual with him though not legally. Perhaps after he finished his deed the others actually forced themselves on her. We don't know the facts that the jury heard but Collins was accountable for his actions and not that of the other 3 involved and something must have led the jury to decide those actions only meritted probation. Regardless of what the facts turn out to be, if hard time is not served by someone then justice will not have been served in my mind. I'll leave it up those on the jury and the judge to dole out the legal punishment as fit depending on each individuals involvement. It is a legal issue what punishment Collins receives and none of use can rightly speak to that given we don't know all the facts or Collins' actual involvement or how things played out that evening. Mac Brown said Collins was a great kid and it was a tragedy as the lives of all involved will be changed forever. Though it was easier for Brown to walk away from Collins and replace him with another stellar recruit he did actually do the right thing in my mind. I did not think Gundy should have brought Collins to Stillwater under the circumstances in the first place regardless of the need for talent but Mike did talk to Collins' family and coach and made his decision that Collins was worth giving a 2nd chance. Should Mike have talked to the local police or DA office? I don't know but I doubt they could have offered up facts and evidence of the case in an ongoing case to someone not directly involved. Even if the OU coaches have a different relationship with the Norman police and DA who often never charge Sooner athletes for their indescretions I don't think things normally work that way in other communities. Particularly in cases involving minors. I therefore cannot condemn Gundy for his initial decision for letting Collins come to OSU though I disagreed with it. Now that the recommended legal punishment is a finite amount of probation, OSU has basically followed suit and given Collins a finite amount of probation from the football team as well. Pending the gathering of unknown facts specifically pertaining to Collins' involvment and the judges actual decision, OSU will also make a final decision in the near future. This seems the most prudent course to chart. Some of us would prefer Collins never wear a Cowboy jersey again. Others may feel the 2nd chance given should not be revoked but punishment given by the coaching staff and university should reflect the severity given legally. I remember Tom Osborne on at least one occasion temporarily removing a player with legal troubles from the team and keeping the kid in his program because he thought it was better for the kid long term than to turn his back on him. That scenario involved severe activities actually committed while the player was at Nebraska. Gundy has cracked the whip when people didn't tow the line while at OSU. Should he now withdraw the 2nd chance given. I don't know. Mike and the OSU administration will have to make that decision after all the legal proceedings are decided and all the necessary facts around Collins specific involvement are determined.

How come you didn't attack Stoops for allowing Dusty to come back and join the team. They got him a medical redshirt because he was a drunk! And then allowed a man that almost killed someone come back and play. Most the entire poke notion knows why Gundy let him play. Because in this country, our Constitution says you are INNOCENT until proven guilty. Gundy wasn't going to punish a kid that had no record, he knew that this was a possiblity and much like the constitution says, he waited till he was found guilty to put him off the team. Stop showing your apparent gooner bias, and why don't we hear how Stoops breaks his back to get a man that almost murdered someone and allegedly more than once. Dusty D. was a far worse human being, but yet the press painted a great picture of Stoops for how he handled it. Your articles are laughable and only build more faith for fans for Gundy and our football team. Gooners, football season is almost over, I guess you won't have anything to root for.

No really, I'm through here! Time to move on to another forum. Won't be back to visit any of your deragatory comments directed at me! At best, OSU's defense has been suspect with or without Collins! No big loss! You know what they say! A great offense is the best defense! Catch up with you again after OSU declaws the Jayhawks sending them back to reality! Then off to Waco for a breather before we ravage a war torn OU plummetted by Texas Tech. If Tech can't beat them on their own the refs sure will! Ha ha ha...ha!

I have one more thing to say then I'm through here! After I graduated from OSU I went to work for a big oil company and shortly after they hired a young white male from Idabel, Oklahoma who graduated from OU. Now this young man was well groomed and well dressed and certainly looked the part! His speech was a bit suspect and his penmanship was deplorable. Nonetheless he was one of OU's finest and a really nice guy. His parents were divorced and his mother was dying of a disease that the doctors couldn't even tell him what she was dying from. Later it was discovered she died of AIDS before anyone really understood what AIDS was! His own marriage was failing and ultimately failed. Fortunately there were no kids involved as they were both yet young and had enough sense not to have children before they parted ways! You could really tell he was from Idabel when he'd get into a screaming match over the phone with his X and everyone they talked about had two first names! Now I know you're asking me what's my point here! He confided in me one day almost at the edge of tears and told me that people just didn't understand what it was like growing up in Idabel! Now you can draw a circle around an area in SE Oklahoma, SW Arkansas, and NE Texas and I don't care how wide the circle gets but were talking poverty and some really bad 'hoods! We're talking drugs and moonshine and guns and knives and poaching and lawlessness and lack of educational facilities! We're talking tree farming and mining. They make your toilet paper down there! They behead your chickens and pluck the feathers for you! So if you're one of those with the BMW parked in the garage who's never witnessed firsthand what it's like to have grown up in poverty with a lack of education or parental supervision, where you either fit in or are taken out, then don't be passing judgement upon something you really don't understand as it pertains to those who have to live it. I'll just finish by saying that Billy Sims from Hooks, TX. is a great example. A poor kid from a poor Texas town wins the Heisman, makes millions in the pros and ends up bankrupt and a spouse abuser! So now do you want to tell me again what a "bad" person Chris Collins is?

Reading some of these comments reminds me why I’m sometimes embarrassed to be from Oklahoma. There are so many ignorant hick fools who care only about ‘merica and football (luckily there are others in OK who try to better themselves and their world). Honestly, what kind of details do you want Berry to dig up? Best case scenario, she was cool with it, they liquored her up and passed her around and raped her (did you not read that part of his article). She’s still a 12 year old girl! I know for some of you morons that’s about the same time that you got down with your 12 year old cousin for the first time, but in other areas of the U.S. that type of behavior is looked down upon. By the way, if anyone is putting together a collage of illogical incoherent babble, search for all of Mary’s comments. Just a warning, you will feel yourself getting dumber as you read them.

No one can defend Chris Collins. You can't do it, he pled GUILTY to Sexual Abuse. It makes no difference if you are an OU fan or an OSU fan, he pled GUILTY. I guarntee, Gundy didn't think he was guilty or would plead guilty, or he would not be at OSU. You also can't compare what troubles the players have been in at OU. It is not the same as SEXUAL ABUSE OF A 12 YEAR OLD. He knew she wasn't 16,no part of a 12 year old looks like a 16 year old, let's get real. He pled guilty so he wouldn't have all the facts come out. He pled Guilty. How would you feel if she were daughter????

See Berry, some people will never get it. Mary gets the prize for being the biggest numbskull. Congratulations Mary. Oh, and Mary, I don't think it is a felony in OK to have sex with a 17 year old Dufus.

Want to read a well written article? GO TO: http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/353276.html. The Oklahoman should take a few pointers!

Great column! It hits the nail right on the head. After all the "shoulda, woulda, coulda's" are said and done, the fact remains--a little 12-year-old girl--while passed out--got gang-raped by a bunch of 17-year-old boys who knew what they were doing because they gave her the alcohol to get her to that state in the first place.

Shame on anyone who tries to make excuses for that!

I'll just say one more thing then I'm shutting her down! Really!!! People who throw rocks shouldn't live in glass houses!

I'll just say one more thing then I'm shutting her down for the evening. This 12 year old girl being raised and cared for by her grandmother was a bad idea! Where was the Department of Human Services? Obviously if her mother either couldn't or wasn't willing or able to take care of her and the father was out of the picture then why wasn't this child in foster care? Seems to me there were a lot of people who dropped the ball on this child and she ended up on the wrong side of the tracks! Sure blame Chris Collins! He deserves it! But look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why this girl dropped through the cracks and had to endure not just this heinous act but why did she have to live the life she lived? Why do so many young girls in our society have to be victims of sexual abuse and what can be done to prevent it when in many cases it's the girls own father who is the perpetrator? Yeah, this is one incident! The kid happens to be a football player at OSU! High profile in this state! Small town Texas kids have a lot of problems! Texas is a big state! Sometimes a sad state of affairs! OU once had a player from a small poor town called Hooks, Texas! OU and OSU both recruit heavily football players from the state of Texas! They'd never win if they didn't! Look what happened to Nebraska after players from Texas didn't want to travel that far from Texas to play for Nebraska! Now OSU has a shiny new stadium between Texas and Lincoln and the buck stops there! Yeah! Look at yourself in the mirror and ask "WHY"?

Forgetting the crude remark you made about texas, arkansas and our Great State of Oklahoma, you finally keyed something that makes sense. Parents are very important in a child's life and both of our state universities should be recuriting "student" atheletes not just atheletes. OU and OSU have quality folks that represent their respected universities well. It is a shame that DOK does so little to put these folks on the front line, but they sell newspapers and for some reason, good stories don't bleed so they don't lead.