Path to equality flush with doubt
In past 10 years, some blacks feel they've made little progress
Some blacks feel they've made little progress

By Devonna Walker
Published: November 14, 2007

Black and white people have hugely different perceptions when it comes to "black progress” over the years and their future prospects, according to a national survey released Tuesday.

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The survey by the Pew Research Center, a Washington-based research organization, indicates most black people feel as if they have made little progress in the last decade. Blacks also were pessimistic about the future, saying they don't believe things will improve in the next five years.

On the other hand, whites were nearly twice as likely to see gains for blacks in the past five years. Fifty-six percent of those polled believed prospects for blacks would improve.

The survey, conducted between Sept. 5 and Oct. 6 and involving 3,035 telephone interviews, paints a mixed picture of race relations in the United States.

"In absolute numbers, whites are more upbeat about the progress of blacks than blacks themselves,” said Paul Taylor, author of the study. "By a very large majority, blacks feel they face discrimination in everyday life. Whites think this is not a common occurrence.”

While the survey also revealed a convergence of values among black people and white people, there is an elemental difference of opinion when it comes to race.

Hometown Market at NE 23 and Martin Luther King Avenue has gone through many changes over the years. But it has remained one of only two grocery stores on Oklahoma City's predominately black northeast side. Its marquee advertises chitterlings for $4.99 a pint.

Most of the customers and employees are black. Pessimism illustrated in the national survey echoed there Tuesday, but so did a sense of personal responsibility.

"I feel as black people we don't always apply ourselves,” said Yvonne Guin, 43, a Hometown cashier.

Guin said there is often a disconnect with what people expect out of life and what they do to reach those expectations.

"As black folks, we've always had it rough. But now we need to start working at any cost,” Guinn said. "We feel like minimum wage is not enough for us. But it's better than nothing. And you can take that and turn it into something.”

Emayoli Turner, 95, grew up on a farm. Her husband was killed while serving in World War II in 1944.

"Our fathers raised everything. Back then, you didn't need to go to the market for anything but sugar,” Turner said. "Now, everything you need, you gotta buy. Being poor has gotten more expensive.”

Turner also said she has seen much progress.

"Some of us are doing a lot better than we used to,” said Turner, who retired from Tinker Air Force Base as a janitor more than 40 years ago. "We can work wherever we want to work now. And there's more of us now getting an education than there used to be.”

A difficult balancing act
James Neal, 75, another Tinker retiree, said for most working-class people, black or white, life has become a difficult balancing act. He said prices for gasoline, food, housing, clothing and energy have skyrocketed while paychecks have remained the same.

Large employers such as Tinker have cut jobs. Others like General Motors Corp. have closed. Black employees were well-represented at both.

The survey found one in five blacks said things are better now for blacks than they were five years ago. That is the smallest percentage since 1983.

Another 29 percent of blacks said things have gotten worse as opposed to staying the same, the largest number since 1990.

In addition, fewer than half of all blacks, or 44 percent, said they expected their prospects to brighten. That's down from 57 percent in 1986, during the height of the Reagan administration when the U.S. Justice Department sought to limit affirmative action in favor of race-neutral policies.

"As disturbing as these findings are, in one sense it's surprising they are not actually worse,” said Wade Henderson, president of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights, a coalition of 200 groups including the NAACP and National Urban League. "Most African-Americans believe the government response to problems is one of benign neglect rather than forceful action.”

Blacks have made considerable gains since the Supreme Court's Brown vs. Board of Education decision more than 50 years ago that outlawed segregation in public schools. Discrimination in housing and employment has been drastically reduced.

Now, blacks and whites are at a crossroads, with the nation and even the black community divided over the best approach to achieve racial equality — whether by affirmative action to foster integration or more race-neutral policies to promote ideals of a colorblind society.

Also, the nation is in a period of transition, facing the reality that the income gap between blacks and whites has grown. Incomes have risen — primarily due to more women in the workforce — but those increases have been greater among whites.

Among black men, there has been a decline in income in the past three decades, when adjusted for inflation. This has been somewhat offset by gains among black women.

University of Maryland political scientist Ron Walter said there's been extensive wage stagnation and declines among all middle-class Americans. But it has been more pronounced among black Americans.

"Essentially blacks are the canaries in that mine, their situation is even worse,” he said.

Contributing: The Associated Press


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Jason, you still miss my point. I am aware of the fact the Africans held Africans as slaves (went to S.W.I.M. and won medals for history). My point is that the market for the sale of Africans to outside countries is what helped to increase the demand for the capture and transport of the slaves to foreign countries. I was not attempting to state exact facts. I was trying to stress the fact that the market was there. I believe that is supply and demand. Just as there are races that dominate other races; there is domination within the race. For that matter, in your storage of historical facts what about the whites that held other whites as slaves or indentured servants or the Indians that actually owned african slaves. The research was not for a history lesson. It was about feelings and perceptions. I agree, we need to accept the fact that things are the way they are and stand up and do something about it, no matter how many times you are pushed down. This generation of young, black, men are seeing the need for change and growing numbers are doing something about it. That is why I wonder the same thing..."In what area do they feel held back". There are no excuses only opportunities. There will never be true racial equality. We have to take responsibility for ourselves. I have taught my son to seize every good opportunity and make it work for him. As I said Jason you are very educated I give that to you. There is a time for facts and a time for feelings. I pray that in your dealings with your loved ones you put aside your facts and try and find your feelings. I can also say that we do not need to be told how to dress or act in order to get ahead. No matter how much we dress up and/or act those very people mentioned..Clara Luper, Thelma Parks, Dr. Valerie Thompson, still went home at night and when they were alone probably admitted to themselves how tough their battle was. And don't think for a minute that one of them did not think how easy it would be to just give up because the struggle was more than they could stand. That is a feeling that, if you are not black, you do not understand and will never understand. That is why the perception of blacks is so different than that of whites. If asked, I am sure either of them would say that things have not progressed for blacks as far as they would like to see. But again, that is their perception. The main difference in those mentioned is that they were determined to never give up. That is also one of the main differences between black men and women. But as I said before, if you are not black, figure out a way to be black for a time. Once you have experienced being black you earn the right to say what we can and should do and how we should or should not feel.
Bobbi, Elk City - Nov 15, 2007 9:44 AM
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The fact of the matter is, slavery was abolished. If you are feeling that you are being held back, explain why? Then go ask the blacks that are successful how they got there. I am speaking of Clara Luper, Thelma Parks, Russell Perry, Dr. Valerie Thompson, etc. I guarantee you that not one of those listed sat on their butts feelng sorry for themselves cause they were black and the whites were oppressing them. They got up and did something to further themselves. At some point on your life, you have to take responsibility for your own destiny. The first step is dressing and acting to impress. You will find it much easier to get a job if you respect yourself and don't show up at interviews with your pants down around your bvds. Not too many will hire someone who will make their business look bad. You may be the nicest person in the world, but of you look like a clown,you will be treated like a clown and sent on your way. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR FUTURE!! Raise your kids right you brought them into this world, it is your responsibility, not mine, the schools or the governments, to raise them. Don't want to hear it can't be done either. Look at the success of Kanye West's mother. She raised him ALONE and got a PhD. and was a professor at a leading university. I don't think she sat around feeling sorry for herself because her husband left. She got up and did something about it!! Take Control!!
K, Oklahoma City - Nov 14, 2007 10:48 PM
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Bobbi, you are incorrect. The African slave trade was thriving on that continent from antiquity, and had little to do with Europeans until roughly the 16th century or thereabouts. The Arab slave trade which began in the 7th century, actually lasted almost a thousand years and was responsible for selling an estimated 17 million people into slavery. In the rest of Africa, the tribes did not keep their "struggles" among themselves: for hundreds if not thousands of years before anyone in Africa had ever laid eyes on a white man the Ashanti, Duali, the Igbo, the Yeroba and the Bornu (these are all Black African tribes, by the way) had as much as half of their populations subjugated in slavery--these were Black tribes enslaving other Black tribes. And I've only named the tribes I can think of off the top of my head! Give me an hour and a trip to my personal library and I could specifically name dozens of sub-Saharan African tribes that routinely enslaved their fellow Africans. Indeed, slavery did not officially end in Ethiopia until 1942! So much for your contention that slavery originated and was primarily driven by Europeans. To the extent that Europeans practiced slavery it was shameful, and rightly abolished. But it was not an European phenomenon. You are entitled to your own opinion, Bobbi, but not your own facts. Have a wonderful evening.
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 6:28 PM
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While African Americans comprise 12% of the U.S. population, 45% of all murder victims in 2002 were African American, 91% of whom were killed by African Americans. Nationally, homicide is the leading cause of death for black men and second leading cause of death for black women ages 15-24.

Mark, Mustang - Nov 14, 2007 6:19 PM
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Jason, my point exactly. The dominant tribes would have had no other reason to capture the weaker tribes if the Europeans were not there to buy them. There would have been no market for them. Their struggles would have remained in Africa amongst the tribes. If the dominant tribes had not cooperated, they were sure to become slaves themselves. I don't remember ever reading about African natives sailing ships loaded with African slaves to Europe first then eventually to North America by themselves. Before anyone that is not black tries to speak to what blacks can and should do, they should put on a "black suit" you know like the Deal or No Deal girls did with the fat suit. Live in it for a month or so and see the difference in how they are treated. I know there is a difference over the phone. As soon as someone that has only had phone conversations with me discovers I am black I am treated different than when they thought I was white. All those early morning speech lessons my mom insisted on do pay off when I need them to. This article is based on a survey. I am an optismistic person. I am a generation beneath Rufus and my son yet another generation. I can say for my generation, we did not have the opportunities that my son has had. And I can say my parents did not have the opportunities that I had. Hopefully this trend will continue. As a whole I would agree that blacks may say they do not think we have progressed as much as white people think we have. My question is in which category are "we" feeling held back? Sometimes we are our own worst enemy because we are so reluctant to stand up and fight for what we want. Anything that is given and not earned, can be taken away. Jason, I must say you appear to be an educated man. I wonder which profession you are in. But I would think that during your education, you would also have learned some human relations skills. Academically, you are on the ball. Your people skills...well I'll just say you may be due for some continuing education credits.
Bobbi, Elk City - Nov 14, 2007 5:31 PM
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I am going to have to agree with some of you on this one. Blacks need to stand up on two legs and stop leaning on one and saying we are being descriminated against. Because, I am so damn sick of hearing that word used by all races. Now the Indians are using it also. Damn get up off your asses and take some responsiblity for yourself and your family you bring into this cold hard world. Work is your key eliminate. Work hard is even better. Teach your children at home what is right and wrong, don't leave it up to the teacher's to do that. I am sorry but everytime you turn around isn't it Blacks that seems to be in the spot light of crimes these days. Just read the newspaper and see who is causing the crimes. Sure whites also commit crimes that is not what I am getting at. It's Blacks that are going to prisons for harsh crimes. Murders and stealing. Get off your butts and learn something. I am sick of wanting all the hand outs for you all. It's gotten way out of hand and you want to act like everyone is against you. NO that isn't the deal, we're just tired of hearing stupid excuses your using. Go to school it is there for you to go to. If you want to go that is your own mistake you will have to live with later in life when your in prison. There are alot of good Black people in this world, but there are alot of worthless blacks making the good ones look bad.
glenda, oklahoma city - Nov 14, 2007 4:54 PM
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The Survey was based on 3,000 phone calls. Where were those calls made? Also Wade Henderson doesn't speak for me, I don't want more forceful "government action". I would just as soon have taxes cut and more jobs than assistance and quota programs. The bottom line is, if you go to school, open the door when opportunity knocks and don't commit crimes, ANYONE can succeed... Let the Government stay out of my business and out of my bank account..
Rufus, spencer - Nov 14, 2007 2:52 PM
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Rufus, YOUR latest post is spot-on, typing too fast.
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 2:51 PM
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Okay, I had to tend to a client briefly but now am back. Amy, your question has been asked and answered. It is not my problem that you seem unable to decipher the basic vernacular English I typed my response in. Rufus, again you latest post is spot-on.
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 2:49 PM
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I understand all that Rufus. I used to be an Education Major but decided that it really wasn't my calling in life. But there is an underlying feeling according to the survey/research done in this article that says all in all the black community doesn't feel as though they have progressed and so we should know why they feel that way "IF" the research is correct.
Rachel, Del City - Nov 14, 2007 2:46 PM
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Amen, Rufus!

People can debate history and all the wrongs that have been inflicted on all the different races since the beginning of time... but the fact is we are all responsible for our own success (or failure), and the upbringing of our children to teach THEM to be responsible for their own success (or failure).

Race has no place in a person taking responsibility for his own actions.
Kim, Oklahoma City - Nov 14, 2007 2:43 PM
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Okay Jason black people are just like white people. But it seems that white people are more optimistic than black people. Why is this so? And dont say that you just answered this question because you did not. You rambled on about how black people are just like white people and we are just all trying to muttle through. Still yet white people have more optimism. Why?
amy, oklahoma city - Nov 14, 2007 2:43 PM
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Rachel, I don't believe the black community feels they haven't progressed as much as whites. The opportunity is there and so are the breaks. Unfortunately a lot of kids,of all colors drop out of school, get into trouble and have all kinds of problems from that point to climb back up, and it's all THEIR own fault..
Rufus, spencer - Nov 14, 2007 2:33 PM
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First off I really do think that it's sad this turned into a huge debate over who was here on the land before the white Europeans. Seriously it is talking about the black community of the United States of America in the current sense. Only as far back as the '80s if I remember correctly. Now, we should be asking those in the black community why they feel that they have not progressed much and why they lack optimism of the future. That should be the real question.
Rachel, Del City - Nov 14, 2007 2:27 PM
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Amy, you cannot "refute" anything, particularly what I have posted. It is impossible to refute provable data & facts. As to your other question, glad to see you have finally ceased to hijack this thread with your own agenda. I wouldn't presume to speak for black people, and I believe anyone who attempts to do so is not only foolish but arrogant. Black people, believe it or not Amy, are just like White people: many of them lack optimism, just like their white neighbors. Many of them work hard, raise their kids, and try to muddle through, just like their white fellow citizens. The problem with people like you and Myra is that you find it impossible to consider a question such as posed by this article without bringing your own agenda into the discussion. Your agenda, as has been shown, is a silly one, but I think you could show more respect for your black neighbors--and all of us for that matter--by limiting your desire to inject that agenda into a discussion that is not, at the end of the day, ABOUT YOU.
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 2:27 PM
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I cannot refute idiocy. Tell me Jason why do you believe that black people lack optimism in this country?
amy, oklahoma city - Nov 14, 2007 2:18 PM
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Rufus, your post is spot-on and gets to the gist of the matter. Human migration has been a constant since mankind first started forming primitive societies in Mesopotamia (or got kicked out of the Garden of Eden, if one prefers). The Russians are not "native" to Russia, the Germans are not "native" to Germany, the French are not "native" to France, the Egyptians are not "native" to Egypt, and so on and so on. Since the Peace of Westphalia, borders in the Western world have been relatively, though not constantly, stable, but this is an historical anomaly. The pattern of human migration has been nearly constant since as far back as recorded history goes.
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 2:17 PM
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Amy, the challenge is again offered: do you have one factual refutation of anything I have posted to present for us today, or is probing the value of my "heart" and "big words" about all you're going to be able to muster? I'll wait right here while you sort it all out.
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 2:12 PM
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European's came to North American over 500 years ago. At that time north American was a vast wilderness, unsettled and wild. No one could say they owned it at that time, if that was the case then any race, anywhere could lay claim to the whole world if they could prove their ancestors were on earth first. Why stop there? Lets lay claim to the entire universe....
Rufus, spencer - Nov 14, 2007 2:12 PM
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Myra dont let him rattle you. His big words are lacking and his heart is too.
amy, oklahoma city - Nov 14, 2007 2:09 PM
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Amy, you have answered my question: your concession, too, is noted and you are dismissed. Have a nice day. Now back to savant #1, Myra: so, Myra, what you're saying is that you don't believe the bulk of historical works extant are accurate because they're written by "Americans"? Well, I'm sorry, but that is not an argument that I can take very seriously. Second, the aborigines the Europeans encountered when they arrived here were NOT Americans, and neither were the Europeans themselves. After this country was established, everyone here became "American," white, black, red, yellow, and brown. Your attempt to distort my words is a desperate tactic of the intellectually feeble. Good day to you, ma'am.
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 1:58 PM
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What happened 150 to 200 years ago has little relevance to people today. None of those events, tragedies happened to any of us. We were not even born. There was plenty of atrocities to go around for the Indians, Whites and Blacks. The rest is just bickering about who did what, when and how much. If you want something in this life, get and education, raise your own kids and know what they are doing and GET A JOB.....If you are not doing those things and have trouble succeeding, that's on you, not us...
Rufus, spencer - Nov 14, 2007 1:57 PM
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I want to apoligize to all black folk reading these posts. I'm sorry it was made into a 'Native' thread. This is supposed to be about black folk. Again, I am sorry. Oh, just one more thing for Jason...sorry, I have to say it...US history books were written by "Americans" for "Americans." (According to you, we, 'aborigines', are not American.) They do not even begin to tell the WHOLE story of the history of this land. They only fashion it to their fitting...tell want they want told. I'm just glad some historians have taken the time to write books on the actual history of this land, but they aren't taught in schools. Maybe you should pick those up and read them. Okay, now I'm through.
Myra, Hulbert - Nov 14, 2007 1:52 PM
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Jason please tell me that you arent really an ass in everday life? I stand by what I posted.
amy, oklahoma city - Nov 14, 2007 1:49 PM
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Amy, I will ask you the same question Myra was unable to adequately answer: do you have an actual, fact-based refutation to anything I have posted, or is "you sure are angry" about all we can expect from you in the debate department? I think I know my answer, but it'd sure be nice if you'd just go ahead and admit that, like Myra, you are out of your league when it comes to discussing historical facts.
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 1:48 PM
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No, Amy, I'm just correct. There is a qualitative difference which those with even the simplest cognitive ability should be able to grasp with little difficulty.
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 1:44 PM
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Myra, as I've already stated, your inability to refute my positions and facts with coherent arguments of your own is noted and your intellectual concession is accepted. Have a nice day (and put down the soap-opera remote and pick up an actual history book sometime; just a little free advice).
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 1:42 PM
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My Jason you sure are angry.
amy, oklahoma city - Nov 14, 2007 1:41 PM
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I'm through with this thread. I refuse to keep responding to such arrogance and ignorance.
Myra, Hulbert - Nov 14, 2007 1:40 PM
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Jason, you are something else. I'm not refuting that my ancestors supposedly migrated to this land thousands of years ago as the history books have read. What I'm trying to say is we (Natives) were sole inhabitants of this land long before the Europeans made their way here.
Myra, Hulbert - Nov 14, 2007 1:38 PM
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I don't allow what happened to my ancestors to hold me down, nor do I go to my tribe or government to ask for any handouts. I don't expect anything from anyone. I was not raised to be that way. I got what I have from doing what I have to do to get it the legally and fairly. I work and pay taxes as everyone else does. I receive medical, vision, and dental insurance through my occupation, and, yes, I do pay a co-pay, though I do have the option of using the Hastings Indian Medical Center. I have to use vision-correcting lens (glasses and contacts), and, yes, I pay for them myself, well, I use my vision insurance, but that never completely covers the cost. We, Cherokee Indians, do not have it easy. Our living expenses are most definitely not covered by the tribe. For Jason, my comments above are not directed toward you. I really don't have any else to say to you...I already said it in my previous posts.
Myra, Hulbert - Nov 14, 2007 1:30 PM
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So, Myra, what you're basically saying is you've read what I've posted and cannot refute it. Your concession in this debate is noted. Have a nice day.
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 1:24 PM
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Robin, thank you for your kind words.
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 1:23 PM
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Myra, that is irrelevant, just as it is irrelevant that for "many, many, many" years before the Romans came the Etruscans inhabited much of central Italy. Or that before the Helvetti decided to start their great migration, the Gallic lands were evenly divided into three distinct cultures in what is modern day France. The fact is, the aborigines European explorers encountered here were neither "native" nor "Americans." Do you have the ability to follow that simple train of thought, or do I need to break out the crayons and draw it for you?
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 1:23 PM
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Jason, just because you use big words doesn't mean you are more educated or even smart for that matter. It just means you feel the need to seem superior to everyone else.
Myra, Hulbert - Nov 14, 2007 1:21 PM
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Jason, this land called the United States had been inhabited by the "aborigines" aka Natives for many, many, many years before the Europeans came and forced their way onto the land and it's inhabitants. I take that back, the Natives of the land took in the European immigrants and showed them how to survive on this land, well, we all know what that lead to...
Myra, Hulbert - Nov 14, 2007 1:18 PM
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Jason, Just wanted to say that you have a great post & I personally appreciate you getting it right, instead of the usual blabbering from the bleeding heart section.
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Nov 14, 2007 1:17 PM
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Myra, do you have something you actually wish to dispute, historically, in what I have posted? Or is argumentum ad hominem your standard fallback position when you encounter people smarter than you (which I'm sure is pretty much the rest of humanity)?
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 1:16 PM
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No, Myra, I just have two things going for me that you apparently lack: an education and the ability to read. Your attempted smear is noted, and dismissed with the contempt it is due.
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 1:14 PM
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Rufus, you couldn't be more right. You should never forget who you are and where you came from (by that, I mean ancestory), but you never let that keep you down or use that as an excuse.
Myra, Hulbert - Nov 14, 2007 1:13 PM
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Everyone, the phrase "Native Americans" is twice incorrect: the aborigines the Europeans explorers encountered were neither "native" to this continent, nor "Americans." They were refugees from Asia, likely driven here over the Alaskan ice bridge by necessity in a search for food and fresh hunting grounds. Human migration out of Mesopotamia has been shown to have been a constant, largely fueled by the need for food. The American Indians are no more "native" to this land than the Norwegians are "native" to the physical land of Norway.
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 1:12 PM
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Well meaning white folks with all the "oppressed" talk. I'm a retired 56 year old black man, working on my second retirement which I will have in 3 years. Have I seen discrimmination in my life? yes, from whites, blacks and hispanics. Whites are not exclusive in the discrimmation club. GO TO SCHOOL, GET A JOB, RAISE YOUR OWN KIDS AND KEEP YOUR NOSE OUT OF OTHER PEOPLE'S BUSINESS. That's been my secret to success...
Rufus, spencer - Nov 14, 2007 1:09 PM
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I believe Jason from Edmond must be a member of the Arian Nation (however it is spelled).
Myra, Hulbert - Nov 14, 2007 1:09 PM
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I'm with you on that one Amy...I have not received a dime for education, a car, housing, etc. Though I do receive money from my tribe...ONLY because I WORK for my tribe. I don't receive per cap, etc. The only thing my tribe has done for me thus far was hire me for the job I'm currently at, but I am thankful for that much. As far as car tags, yes, I do have a tribal tag, but I can guarantee you that I'm only paying approximately $10 less a year than everyone else in the state that get the regular Oklahoma tags. In case you are wondering, I am a member of the Cherokee Nation. (Just a tidbit: 95% of the people who come in for these services the tribe provides have VERY LOW blood quantums.)
Myra, Hulbert - Nov 14, 2007 1:04 PM
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Amy, the piffle you posted is too inconsequential to reply to. Suffice it to say you need to quit getting your historical perspective from made-for-TV movies and Hollywood, and pick up an actual history book. Bobbi, you are incorrect. Sub-saharan Africa during the time of the slave trade thrived on that trade specifically because the dominant tribes were able to subjugate their neighbors and sell them to Europeans. It was not because "they did it as a means to survive and not become a slave themselves" that this trade flourished: it was because the stronger tribes--all Black Africans--had the power to compel the weaker tribes into slavery at the hands of the Europeans and (lesser known) Muslim enclaves throughout Northern Africa and parts of Southwest Asia. As for the rest, folks, this country was going to be "settled" and "conquered" by some group of people, whether it be English, French, Spanish, Russian, or Japanese. As it so happens, the English influence on the eastern coast of the continent took hold, gained its independence, and then spread. The "Dances with Wolves" theory of history tells us that the aborigines who lived here before the arrival of Europeans were one big band of saints, tribes of Mahatma Gandi's & Mother Teresa's whose "paradise" was ruined by the evil white man. This is nonsense: pre-European North America was a land of misery, with raging internecine warfare, human sacrifice as a religious imperative, mass starvation always hovering close by, and a vicious form of plunder economy that would have made the ancient Romans blush ruling the day. This country--and the world--is much better off for the European influx which led to the formation of the United States of America, period. Get over it.
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 1:04 PM
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Just remember as you celebrate Oklahoma's centennial there are people who were here before the blacks who were treated terrible, stripped of their land, their pride, their traditions and then forced to live in squalor and accept it with a smile. They are the native americans.
Cletus, Mayberry - Nov 14, 2007 1:02 PM
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Amy, have you asked for those items from your tribe? I work with released Indian inmates and I have never failed to get them a check for a laptop from Dell or Apple. I have yet to been turned down by any Oklahoma college for a scholarship. You just haven't asked or you wont ask. Every tribe in Oklahoma has an education endowment for their members. I am NOT mistaken because this is what I do. But you do have to ask for these things. Its not a handout, its a valuable investment. One recent case involved a man who was getting released and wanted to do a film like, "Smoke Signals". His tribe not only put him in a film program at O.U., they went out and bought him a Canon XL-2 camera at the tune of $2500. His first project was a documentary about tribal history, lore, and customs. He immediately paid back the donation by honoring his benefactors. The Black-vs-Indian thing is correct because the Daily Oklahoman wrote an article about Black people feeling they were not being treated fairly. I don't believe the post said anything about Native Americans. You people made it an N.A.thing in your responses. Now, I would like to help you get a laptop, scholarships, low cost tag but I can only help convicted felons. If by chance you do have a criminal record, I can help you.
John, Stigler - Nov 14, 2007 1:00 PM
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Amy, have you asked for those items from your tribe? I work with released Indian inmates and I have never failed to get them a check for a laptop from Dell or Apple. I have yet to been turned down by any Oklahoma college for a scholarship. You just haven't asked or you wont ask. Every tribe in Oklahoma has an education endowment for their members. I am NOT mistaken because this is what I do. But you do have to ask for these things. Its not a handout, its a valuable investment. One recent case involved a man who was getting released and wanted to do a film like, "Smoke Signals". His tribe not only put him in a film program at O.U., they went out and bought him a Canon XL-2 camera at the tune of $2500. His first project was a documentary about tribal history, lore, and customs. He immediately paid back the donation by honoring his benefactors. The Black-vs-Indian thing is correct because the Daily Oklahoman wrote an article about Black people feeling they were not being treated fairly. I don't believe the post said anything about Native Americans. You people made it an N.A.thing in your responses. Now, I would like to help you get a laptop, scholarships, low cost tag but I can only help convicted felons. If by chance you do have a criminal record, I can help you.
John, Stigler - Nov 14, 2007 12:59 PM
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Stop being so scared of the unknown?
amy, oklahoma city - Nov 14, 2007 12:41 PM
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Why do we say "blacks" or "whites". That is so ugly! Who gives a crap what color we are! Everyone should just grow up and 1. stop feeling sorry for yourself and 2. Stop being so scared of the unknown!
Sunny, Oklahoma City - Nov 14, 2007 12:14 PM
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John you are sadly mistaken. I am an AI and I have not received a dime from my tribe. No free laptop, no car, no college tuition paid. Dont you understand I am not looking for money. I am looking for equality. Had you read my post thoroughly you would have noticed that I did not make reference to this being a black-vs-AI thing. This is not about money this is about respect and understanding.
amy, oklahoma city - Nov 14, 2007 12:06 PM
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Cletis, it is people like you that are the reason Blacks are still treated as the minority. You need to research your history. The Africans were not the ones that sold their people out. I would venture to guess that if there had been no outside influences, their only issues would have been tribal issues with each other. They did it as a means to survive and not become a slave themselves. Some africans escaped slavery because of some of those Africans. We could go on and on for days discussing the injustices of blacks, whites, American indians, and any other race of people. The fact of the matter is that blacks have not progressed in some areas of this country as much as in other areas. Some of this is our (blacks) fault, but most of it is "the man". Brown vs Board of Education forced the issue of black children being able to be educated in the same manner as white. If the people that controlled funding for schools had spread the money the way it should have been spread, there would have been no need for Brown vs Board of Education. The schools would have been separate but equal. I think I speak for the majority of black parents when I say that we would have loved for our children to be educated and to have been educated ourselves, in a school system that would have embraced blacks and black history. As it stands not many of the schools are teaching black history as it should be taught. How many blacks in Oklahoma and are not from Tulsa know about the Tulsa Riot? Oklahoma history was mandatory when I was in 9th grade, but that riot was not mentioned in the literature in my school. I am not proud of Sharpton and Jackson at times myself. There have been times they have done more damage to blacks than they have helped. Cletis, I know a few white neighborhoods that can stand a little litter control in OKC also. I also think I see more whites than blacks eating from KFC. Everyone should know Blacks prefer Churches chicken over KFC (LOL). I taught my son that he can do anything he wants in life. Sure being a young, black, male may make it tougher due to the stereotyping of young black males. But anything worth having is worth the struggle to have it. I do not care for blacks that act as though they are entitled. In some cases there may be some entitlement due, but we should never act as though it is owed to us. We should all remember, if you forget the past you are doomed to repeat it. One of these days the tide will turn, blacks will no longer be the minority and I think this is the fear and one of the major reasons black men are still being held down in some areas.
Bobbi, Elk City - Nov 14, 2007 11:48 AM
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Its intriguing that this turned into a Black-vs-Native American thing. Native Americans have a much broader safety net when it comes to basic services. If a N.A. person wants to attend college, their tribe will provide a myriad of services to make it happen. These things include scholarships, laptops or computers, clothes, living expenses, housing, and help with transportation. A Black student will receive the usual services offered other races, but I am not aware of the NAACP buying every Black student a laptop or providing other expensive services other than the odd scholarship. Native Americans also enjoy federally mandated benefits Black people don't received unless they have enough percent of N.A. blood. These benefits include low or no cost vehicle tags and free primary health care services. I'm not aware of the NAACP operating any casinos. N.A. people do receive a percentage of casino profits and if you are N.A. with one of the Florida tribes, you are receiving a royalty check of in excess of 1 million dollars per year. Yet if you are a N.A. in New Mexico with a gas station casino, you are lucky to get $100. As for the general disparity between the races in the workplace this scares me a lot. We had an opening at my work place and interviewed about 100 people. We hired a young Black man in his low 20's. He was the obvious best pick for this opening of a rather high paying position. We had to fire him. Once he got in, he literally thought he had reached the gravy train. He wanted all the benefits this job afforded but he didn't want to put out the work. Yes, he was hired under the provision of Affirmative Action. So, his firing process took 45 days. We documented everything he did to warrant his firing. In the end, the Affirmative Action enforcement officer met with us and agreed to let him go. When he tried to take his case to them, they had the files ready. He then tried to play the NAACP race card. Time will tell if Clara Looper or Rosevelt Miltion will be on TV denouncing our agency, but we sure did the ground work.
John, Stigler - Nov 14, 2007 11:44 AM
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I read this on a t-shirt made by Rez Dog Clothing, and I think it has been one of the best quotes I have read...

"I am and Indian Woman...I am strong...I am soft...I am the Indian experience...My people have suffered hardships beyond what I can imagine...But they survived and persevered...And so will I...Never underestimate the power of and Indian Woman!"

If all people whose ancestor endured much loss, pain and suffereing, male and female, tried to live by that saying...then society would be in much better shape today.

Just a little sad side-note: My deceased brother and sister-in-law gave this t-shirt to my mother a couple of days before they were killed in a car wreck caused by a drunk driver...a young, white man. He not only took their lives, he also took the lives of my 6-year-old nephew and unborn niece. He left 2 young boys with physical and emotional scars and without their parents, big brother, and baby sister (they never got to meet).
Myra, Hulbert - Nov 14, 2007 10:48 AM
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I am an American Indian living in a white mans world. We were meant to live on the land. To hold it dear and to keep it sacred. We cannot protect it any more and we are lost. I follow the white mans rules. I drive a white mans horse. I live in a red brick house and educated in a white mans school. But always remember I am not a white man. I am an American Indian. I am not ignorant. I am not a drunk. I am not paganistic because I worship the land. Do not define me. I will be fine because I take responsibilty for myself. But try to understand that grave injustices were done and dont think that they wont have mental and emotional ramifications on future generations. We will find ourselves again. It will simply take time.
amy, oklahoma city - Nov 14, 2007 10:39 AM
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No, I don't use what my ancestors endured as an excuse as to why I may or may not be doing well. I never had to endure what they had to endure (thank goodness), but at the same time, there is a sadness in my soul. As far as my lifestyle, I make do with what I have and don't fret over what I don't. I am a single, 29-year-old Native American woman with no children and not on any type of government services. I'm not rich by any means, but I have my own money and own belongings. I do alright for myself. At this day and age, no one can opress me personally except for myself. Now as a tribe, there are only 2 entities that can oppress us, ouselves and the government.
Myra, Hulbert - Nov 14, 2007 10:38 AM
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Myra, I understand what you are saying. But do you personally use what your ancestors went through as an excuse today? Or do you stand proud of the fact that we aren't in that same situation today and you have more opportunities and freedoms than did your ancestors?
Julie, Oklahoma City - Nov 14, 2007 10:28 AM
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Amy, OKC...that has to be the best articulated response I have ever read. I know you will get bashed for it, but it is on target. I will say there are some folks who take the "oppression" excuse way too far, but it is NOT across the board with the all black communities or the native communities. Worldly-speaking, 100+ years is actually not that long ago. How many generations would it have been.. 5-7? I know my great-great-great-great grandmother was a young child on the Trail of Tears. Her granddaughter...my GG grandmother lived to be 105 (6/15/1893 - 3/26/1998). She was able to tell the stories to us that her grandmother had told her. What I'm getting at is our ancestors who actually lived through the worst times in history had a very big impact on our up-bringing. She was able to tell her children of the worst period in Native history and the hardships they endured, something no one who lived it could ever forget...her children told their children, etc. My GGGG gramdmother who lived through it was only 7 generations from myself...a 29 year old woman. I was 20 years old when my GG grandmother passed...she was the granddaughter of the woman who was a child on the Trail of Tears...see how the generations overlap. I hope I got my point through and didn't confuse anyone.
Myra, Hulbert - Nov 14, 2007 10:22 AM
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Ignorance? How about every time a crime or injustice is committed against a black person Sharpton and Jackson are all over it crying for justice and fairness, but if a crime is committed against a white person from a black man, such as the one a few months ago where a young couple was beaten and brutally raped by a gang of blacks, they are NOWHERE to be found? What about the Duke Lacrosse case? After the accuser was found to be a liar, did Sharpton and Jackson come forward and apologize to the media for hyping a liar? No, not a word was heard from them. And as for other generalizations, I encourage you to pick up trash in some of the black neighborhoods in town...I do it around where I live and frequently am picking up discarded KFC boxes, drink containers, Old English 800 bottles....and regularly witness blacks throwing this trash out of their vehicles. It's amazing that they will spend thousands to keep their car clean and nice but have no regard for the cleanliness of their neighborhoods. Name ONE black neighborhood in this city that isn't trashed or have high crime. Name ONE.
Cletus, Mayberry - Nov 14, 2007 9:57 AM
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So do you use your past to excuse your behavior now, or do you stand up and take responsibility for yourself and become who you want to be, despite your past?
Julie, Oklahoma City - Nov 14, 2007 9:56 AM
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For many centuries, including this one, black people have been demeaned, denigrated,lynched, harassed and just outright dogged because of their skin color. Even today they are told how worthless they are. When black men were slaves they were not allowed to express their anger. They were literally castrated emotionally and physically and their male egos were stomped. They werent allowed to protect their wives or their children in those days. Personally I think that somehow the black men of today believe that they arent worthy to be husbands or fathers. They socially disconnected. When they were slaves they lost their identities as black men and became what white man told them they were. Today they are desperately trying to find themselves. I think that this is what the white man does not understand about black people and American Indians. Their land and freedom werent the only things that were stolen and lost during those times of suffering. Egos and identities were too. My gosh the languages and cultures that were destroyed. Can you imagine being a man stolen from your homeland, from your loved ones and sold into slavery? Having no say in any aspect of your life whatsoever or in the lives of your children. Trying to assert and maintain some sort of authority over your children and then have your owner come in and destroy it and denigrate you in front of your them. Dont give me that bull that slavery ended over 100 years ago. Dont you realize that we are raised by the generation before us. Can you imagine being an American Indian male and trying to decide if you should fight to the death for the sacredness of the land and to fight for what is morally right or to appear to your children and wife as a coward when you decide to escape with your family so you can help in keeping them alive? I pray that people look to their ancestors for wisdom and guidance so that they can heal and someday regain the ethnic identity that has been lost. We are vaulable as minorities even though some say that we arent.
amy, oklahoma city - Nov 14, 2007 9:25 AM
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Right on Jon!
Cletus---all I can say is WOW, you are so far off the mark with your generalizations and your stereotypical comments, that I refuse to engage you any further. Ignorance and prejudice is alive and well.
T, OKLAHOMA CITY - Nov 14, 2007 9:01 AM
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Oh, and in case blacks forgot..it was your own people who sold you out to slavery...do the research, it's a known fact that Africans were working with Europeans to con their fellow tribesmen into being trapped into slavery...so if you want to go after anyone for reparations and blame anyone, go after your native nation..I hear they are giving tons of money away in Nigeria.
Cletus, Mayberry - Nov 14, 2007 8:48 AM
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Maybe if blacks took responsibility for their own lives and actions, stopped blaming everyone, stopped sucking the government dry for every hardship in their life, stopped using the excuse of whitey getting them down to justify commiting crimes, taught their kids some self-respect and not to look up to people who rap about treating women like meat and that money is everything and not family, then maybe Rev Sharpton and Jesse Jackson would be out of a job and get some real kind of employment like actually doing some good for the community instead of looking for the next PR opportunity.
Cletus, Mayberry - Nov 14, 2007 8:46 AM
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Robin, "Where are you at?" is not a proper question, either. Never end a sentence with a proposition.
Karen, Oklahoma City - Nov 14, 2007 8:41 AM
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I am going to state my opinion because I am entitled to it & then you feel free to roast me or whatever makes you feel better. Most, but not all black people feel like white people owe them something, Al Sharpton & Jesse Jackson & the NAACP do not help your cause. I very rarely see a black women with a husband, she usually has 3 or 4 kid's but no Husband. So when does it become the responsibility of the black people to teach their children that gangs, hip hop music,& wearing your pant's down to your knees so that everyone can see that you wear underwear , just put's these children at a disadvantage. I think Bill Cosby said it all when he put the problem where it lies ,back on the black folk & what goes on at home. Send your child to school & teach him to talk, where you be? is not a proper question try where are you at? Education will get the higher paying job's, there are plenty of white people out there working for min wage as well. If you want respect, leave race out of it, educate the children teach them it is ok to get married & it is ok to speak proper English & most importantly why are black people so loud & pushy ???? It isn't a requirement to get by in life. There is a total lack of respect for people in general in the black community. BTW I know very many great black people that do not act like the description above & they do hold very good job's because they are educated & speak english.
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Nov 14, 2007 8:20 AM
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K, Oklahoma City - Nov 14, 2007 3:46 AM
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My husband is black and I am white. We are looked down on more by the blacks than the whites. As for discrimination, we have had no problems finding housing or obtaining credit. It is how you carry yourself, not the color of your skin. Respect others as you want to be respected. Is discrimination alive and well in the USA? You bet it is!! But again, it is not what people call you it is what you answer to.
K, Oklahoma City - Nov 14, 2007 3:36 AM
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Brown vs. Board of Education was a disastrous decision in the sense that it was adjudicated on the extremely dubious notion that all Black America needed was to rub elbows with White Americans for a few generations in a classroom to make everything better. What the Supreme Court SHOULD HAVE ruled is that de jure segregation is illegal to the extent that it violates the principle of neighborhood schools. Further, they should have ruled that if states are going to fund public schools, the funding must be equal across the board regardless of other factors. This would have accomplished three very worthy goals: 1. It would have ended legal segregation without the disastrous disruption and failure of busing, stressing instead the neighborhood school concept. 2. It would have substantively improved the quality of schools in poorer neighborhoods across the board, white and black alike. 3. It would have been Constitutional. Brown vs. Board of Education is not Constitutional; it is a badly-decided Supreme Court decision by a group of nine white liberals who mistook patronizing black Americans as the same thing as respecting them.
Jason, Edmond - Nov 14, 2007 12:59 AM
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It's a sad situation, but look at "black culture" as whole, and the image it portrays to our nation and the rest of the world. Be a thug. Get rich quick. Impregnate as many women as you can. Show off. Be hard. I'm aware of the sociological factors that weigh against all of this, but the sociology isn't going to change the fact that black community as a whole is propagating despair, and doing itself a grave disservice.
Jon, Oklahoma City - Nov 14, 2007 12:41 AM
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