Immigration law's support shows strain
HB 1804: Dissent grows
Immigration law's support shows strain

By Devona Walker
Published: December 3, 2007

As some consider fortifying the toughest immigration enforcement law in the nation, the base supporting the controversial measure appears to be fracturing.
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House Bill 1804 passed un- equivocally in the Oklahoma Legislature. Even now, many still support it. But dissent is seeping into Republican leadership, and it's spilling out into the street.

"I'm very concerned,” said Rep. Don Armes, R-Faxon. "I see the problem, and I agree something has to be done. But I believe we are going about it the wrong way. What's the collateral damage of all this going to be?”

HB 1804 denies driver's licenses and public services to illegal immigrants and criminalizes transporting, concealing and harboring illegal immigrants from detection or in reckless disregard of their citizenship status.

The ‘Son of HB 1804'
"Son of House Bill 1804” is a proposal that would bolster the existing law. Its centerpiece is a provision designating English as the official language of the state.

Rep. Randy Terrill, author of HB 1804, said his newest proposal also will allow law enforcement to seize the assets of those prosecuted under the statute. It also will likely include a "taxpayer transparency in education as it relates to illegal aliens” provision.

"How many illegal aliens are in what school districts? How much is it costing taxpayers and whether it is having an adverse effect on our ability to educate own American citizens' children,” said Terill, R-Moore. "That's money that can be used for teacher pay raises, capital improvements and any other reason as opposed to educating children who shouldn't be here in the first place.”

The most controversial provision would deny birth certificates to children born in the U.S. to illegal immigrant parents.

The federal government guarantees this right through the 14th Amendment. This provision would legally challenge the federal government's interpretation.

"I don't agree with the notion of birthright citizenship,” Terrill said. "That is my motive, that is why I am actively looking into it.”

That provision might not make it into proposed legislation, he concedes.

Support waning
The Oklahoma Chamber of Commerce has remained relatively neutral on Oklahoma's immigration law.

But it has since lost some of that neutrality.

"We never said we supported that bill,” said Mike Seney, senior vice president of operations for the State Chamber.

Immigration is a national policy debate that is being decided by an "Internet populace,” Seney said. "The two extremes are handling the debate, and the people in the middle are confused, wondering what is going on.”

The results of polls on immigration reflect the widespread sentiment that something needs to be done. But Seney, among others, doubts Oklahomans want to give state legislators the OK to openly defy federal laws.

"Nothing has been done for so long that this has become a bigger problem than it needs to be,” said Rep. Dennis Johnson, R-Duncan. "You have to draw the line somewhere. This legislation drew a line in the sand. It said, ‘No, this is where we stop.'

"At some point, we had to say, ‘Whose country is it?'”

But even Johnson says "the line was certainly drawn over there toward the edge.”

Johnson still supports HB 1804. But now he thinks the Legislature should consider a statute that softens the blow.

"Ninety-five percent of them are here for the right reasons. They are here to feed their children. I don't fault them for that,” Johnson said. "There really should be a way to expedite the process for them to become American citizens.”

Johnson said he would support legislation that offers temporary working permits, if illegal immigrants are in the process of becoming legal residents.

"When you pass legislation, it's kind of a black-and-white issue. But then, once it's passed, you start to see the faces of people,” Johnson said. "Then you go back and modify it.”

‘Groundswell of anger'
Armes also voted for HB 1804.

He thinks Oklahoma's expectations regarding immigration are pretty simple: They want to know who is coming into this country, that they are not criminals or drug smugglers and ultimately that they are paying taxes.

He feels HB 1804 has done more to divide the state than address those core concerns.

"In my mind, if you seize somebody's property, you better have a ... good reason. An outlaw is one thing, but not someone we've turned into an outlaw,” Armes said. "There's going to be a groundswell of anger from John Q. Public when they have to prove citizenship just to get a driver's license. What about the guy who pays good wages and still can't find workers?

"This is going to create a lot of anger, and it's not just going to be coming from those who are against illegal immigrants.”

At the state Department of Motor Vehicles on Monday, the line was not terribly long, but it was sluggish.

Mark Rogers, 47, born in Dodge City, Kan., had a birth certificate, marriage license and Social Security card in hand, and still he wasn't sure if he was adequately prepared.

"I work at a machine shop with a lot of Hispanic people. Whether they are legal or not, I don't know. But I do know they are all hard-working people,” Rogers said. "If the concern is illegal immigration, this is not going to get it done.

"I think this is a waste of time.”

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mary, you like so many others are so full of your selves its not funny... It is not a race issue! It is a matter of illegal vs. legal issue! Come in legal and go to work... But stop with all the goverment freebies to the illegals that our own citizens can't get or get as much of... And it doesn't matter what race they are...
Ollie, Oklahoma City - Dec 5, 2007 9:46 AM
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So many of you should be illegal. And your children should not suffer for it. Some of you really are filled with hate and "Mexicans" have nothing to do with it. You are just like that. The bill passed. It is being enforced by whoever wants to enforce it. But children being born here are united states citizens and if we can pick and choose who isn't then I think that I will start writing names. These are people. These are children. Most af you are just envious of their dedication, responsibility and sense of being what you all are not-hard laborers. You all probably feel like they are going to dominate you like black people did when they were finally treated somewhat decent. If you could illegalize blacks, and any other race you would. Let them do what you won't.--WORK.
mary, oklahoma city - Dec 4, 2007 5:25 PM
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The $3.36 Billion is the amount appropriated to the Oklahoma's Dept of Ed's by our legislature. There are other moneys that come to local schools through county taxes.
Concerned, Central Oklahoma - Dec 4, 2007 4:15 PM
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Buzz, on your declaration of education costs “Arizona spends 7.54 BILLION per year on the 100,000 illegal immigrant students in their state. I would guess OK is not too far behind AZ and that is only the cost for education.” You may want to verify your sources. If you take 100,000 students x the $7500 per student in your subsequent comment, the total is $750 Million, not $7.54 Billion. The entire Oklahoma Department of Education budget in 2007 (for ALL students) was $2.34 Billion for common education (K-12) plus $1.02 Billion for higher education, for a total of $3.36 Billion.
Concerned, Central Oklahoma - Dec 4, 2007 4:13 PM
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Wave Of Illegals Turns Into Tsunami
http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=281232471584382
Buzz, Cupertino - Dec 4, 2007 9:23 AM
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Immigration and Welfare






Although the United States’ welfare rolls are already swollen, every year we import more people who wind up on public assistance: immigrants. Many immigrants are poor; indeed, that is why they come here. The immigrants we admit are much poorer than the native population and are increasing the size of our impoverished population. As a result, the share of immigrant households below the poverty line (18 percent) is much higher than the share of native households that are poor (11 percent)—nearly twice as high. And immigrant households are more likely to participate in practically every one of the major means-tested programs. Immigrant use of welfare programs (21 percent) is 43 percent higher than non-immigrants’ use (15 percent).1

Each year, state governments spend an estimated $11 billion to $22 billion to provide welfare to immigrants.(2)

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters7fd8
Buzz, Cupertino - Dec 4, 2007 9:11 AM
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Illegal Immigration Counters
http://immigrationcounters.com/
Buzz, Cupertino - Dec 4, 2007 8:56 AM
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Amy, Arizona spends 7.54 Billion edcuating 100,000 school-age illegal immigrant children each year, at a cost of $7500 per student - that figure came from the head of the AZ Department of Education. If you take the state by state illegal immigrant numbers, that accounts for the majority of the 360 Billion. I'll be back with the links and numbers.
Buzz, Cupertino - Dec 4, 2007 8:47 AM
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Buzz I doubt your statistic that states that illegal immigrants cost the United States $360 Billion dollars a year. Can you cite your source?
amy, oklahoma city - Dec 4, 2007 8:38 AM
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The Federal government, and the Democrats wanted to grant amnesty to between 12, and 30 million, illegal immigrants. Fortunately American citizens stood up and prevented that from happening. Repeated attempts to pass the Dream Act have also been beaten back. NY Governor Spitzer tried to grant Driver's licenses to illegals; 77% of all New Yorkers forced him to change his mind. Americans want illegal immigrants to leave our country. They broke the law to get here; they broke the laws with their forged SS documents, and they continue to break the laws while they remain here. Illegal means just that, illegal. America has enough poverty level people that we already willingly support. We can't afford to pay the cost for 12, to 30 million, illegal immigrants. Three cheers for OK for doing something about it.
Buzz, Cupertino - Dec 4, 2007 8:17 AM
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I believe the Articles of Confederation went by the wayside over 225 years ago. We do not need 50 seperate laws on immigration. What we do need is for the Congress and the President to step forward, fellow the Constitution and pass laws that protect the USA.
JH, deep red creek - Dec 4, 2007 7:57 AM
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Again, illegal immigrants only benefit business owners, and the politicians the businesses support, and the Chamber Of Commerces that the businesses employ. Illegal immigrants cost U.S. taxpayers oiver 360 BILLION DOLLARS a year. If you aren't a business owner, illegal immigrants are costing you money. Every other state is envious of OK, because OK is taking a strong stand against illegal immigrants; the very first state to do so. Arizona's new laws against illegal immigrants go into effect on Jan. 1, 2008. 244 new laws against illegal immigrants have been passed in 2007; three times as many as in 2006. Twelve other states are in line to pass laws similar to OK and AZ. 31 states have joined State Legislators for Legal Immigration, to join in passing anti-illegal immigrant legislation. Take the time to learn who is supporting illegal immigration, and it will be the businesses and the Catholic Churches.
Buzz, Cupertino - Dec 4, 2007 7:48 AM
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Take this discussion back 130 years or so - this land was reserved BY LAW for Native Americans. A bunch of illegals came across the border. They were removed by the authorities, but they kept coming back and coming back, and finally got enough political stroke to change the law so they could steal the land away from those who had been lawfully entitled to it. We may not all be here illegally, but we wouldn't be here if it weren't for the illegal immigrants.

So, if they were made "legal," would you shut up and accept them because they're no long illegals? I doubt it, because at the root of it is your xenophobia and fear of the unknown.

Come up with a solution that allows them to work here, start a process toward naturalization, and avoid disruption of the economy. Simple-sounding solutions are fine for those who are simple-minded, but they create twice as many problems as they solve.

Walter, Edmond - Dec 4, 2007 6:10 AM
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Has anyone bothered to stop and think of the aliens that *aren't* Hispanic? My husband has a green card. It took us three years and $7500+ to get it. None of you would have a problem with him speaking his native language in the checkout line; he's English. HB1804 isn't just about anchor babies and penalizing employers and landlords who don't check to make sure that someone is here legally, folks. My husband, who went about it the right way, now has to get a new driver's license with the word TEMPORARY on it. Ah, the scarlet letters! You have no idea how many people from other parts of the world are here with our government's blessing, paying taxes and working to better themselves ... all you see is that somebody's speaking Spanish (or some other language that you don't understand), and somebody's paying with Access, and somebody's kid is getting a free lunch at school when yours isn't ... ad infinitum, ad nauseam. My husband CHOOSES to remain a British citizen, even though he he is treated to the joys of the special screening lines at airports and having a brand on his driver's license. We went through three years of hassles and paperwork and interviews and waiting (our "odyssey" began before 9/11 but ended after it). Because of this, I agree with most of the provisions in HB1804 that relate to illegal immigrants, but it seems that Rep. Terrill pushed the envelope a little further than necessary in effectively curtailing the right to peaceful enjoyment of those who have been through the process and are here legally. The guy is grandstanding, and the sad/scary part is that so many people are buying into it!
Donna, Oklahoma City - Dec 4, 2007 12:26 AM
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Anything negative about Terrill's HB 1804 is most likely originating from business owners; they had illegal immigrant workers who worked very hard for not much above minimum wage. Now, they are in the process of losing those illegal immigrant workers. They are greedy and they are squealing. These are the same illegal immigrant workers that cost U.S. taxpayers 360 BILLION DOLLARS a year.
Buzz, Cupertino - Dec 4, 2007 12:07 AM
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From the great state of VA to the GREAT state of OK. Go OK GO! Please don't back down now! Just say no to all this invader madness.
Clem, Roanoke - Dec 4, 2007 12:00 AM
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These one-sided stories get old. Some Bishop, some slave owner, some activist, and some advocate always get the headline. Never an article, story, or even whisper about the majority. The Oklahoman, Tulsa World, and just about every other newspaper always on one side. That's not reporting, that's just leftist, socialist, and marxist. I guess free press means write about everything, except the truth. Whatever happened to reporting the news, not trying to shape it, mold it, be an activist or advocate for one side. This type of reporting is more Anti-American than the illegals themselves.
J.T.(I), Norman - Dec 3, 2007 11:57 PM
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Illegal immigrants cost U.S. Taxpayers 360 BILLION DOLLARS a year. That amounts to costing each U.S. citizen, even each of your children, and grandchildren, $1200 per year. Heck, the War In Iraq, is only costing 200 Billion a year. The only people benefitting from illegal immigrants are business owners, and the politicians, and Chamber of Commerce people, they have on their payroll. Most of the cost of illegal immigrants is education - each school age illegal immigrant student costs us over $7,000 per year. Arizona spends 7.54 BILLION per year on the 100,000 illegal immigrant students in their state. I would guess OK is not too far behind AZ. and that is only the cost for education. There's the free medical care that we pay for; In the last 20 years, California has had close to 100 hospitals and treatment centers close their doors, because of the money they lost treating illegal immigrants FREE. Then there's the Law Enforcement cost, the Court costs, the jail, and prison costs, the welfare costs, the housing subsidy cost, the food stamp cost, and the Federal grants to the poor and impoverished. If I didn't have to pay all of these taxes for the benefit of illegal immigrants I wouldn't worry about standing in line at the DMV for an extra hour, or two. Hell if I save $1200 for myself, my wife, and three kids, that's $6000 I would save. Think about it and do the math. Illegal immigrants only benefit businesses. The rest of us pay through the nose.
Buzz, Cupertino - Dec 3, 2007 11:50 PM
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cale.. the taco on your breath is getting a little stale. you..YOU are the one pulling the race card. And it "just don't work no more". cya
Mike, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 10:36 PM
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I'll tell you what Brenda, If you can speak spanish, post your next diatribe in spanish and I will stand corrected. It makes me laugh that you get offended by others speaking another language in your presence. You have no idea whether those people are legal, illegal or were americans choosing to keep your big ears from nosing into their business. You and your ilk are exactly the people that make this issue racist. It's not that they are illegal, it's that they are brown. I guess that you do not comprehend that even if english is made the official language that people can still choose to speak in any language they choose in public. Or do you want that idiot Terrill to make speaking spanish in line at the Dollar General store where you shop illegal as well? How do you say, "where are your white sheets" in spanish?
Cale, oklahoma city - Dec 3, 2007 9:36 PM
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I think the one thing that makes me so angry about this immigration issue is that we hear constantly that ...they are good for our economy...they do the jobs that americans won't do...I say.Bull.... They do the jobs that most people won't do for the wages. So, I say to the employers, pay the wages....get the workers. If you can't pay the decent wage to get the decent legal employee...you don't need to be in business. Nuff said!
K, Edmond - Dec 3, 2007 9:19 PM
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typo..of our country
K, Edmond - Dec 3, 2007 9:09 PM
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Jason, you are one sick puppy. You make a mockery of these posts and I for one am sick of it. Either get real or get lost!!
K, Edmond - Dec 3, 2007 9:01 PM
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Jason, you are one sick puppy. You make a mockery of these posts and I for one am sick of it. Either get real or get lost!!
K, Edmond - Dec 3, 2007 9:00 PM
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No, Mike, I am not a teacher and did not learn Spanish because of that but thank you for the accolades. I learned Spanish in a elective class in my junior year in high school. HaHa Who would have known? My point was:...If we can learn Spanish...they can learn the language or our country.If you want to be Americans.... prove it
K, Edmond - Dec 3, 2007 9:08 PM
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It just blows me away at the number of people that want to sell this country out. Our forefathers that founded this country must be turning over in their graves that we would give up what they fought and died for.We are Americans first and foremost. The last time I checked, English was the American language. THAT is the operative word here....American. If we migrate to Mexico will they change their language? I am sick to death of these bleeding hearts. Go bleed somewhere else. I don't know if the rest of you have the ..... to say so but when I am in a checkout line and I hear nothing but illegals speaking Spanish, I have no problem looking at them and saying, "Habla Espanol, Usted es en Estados Unidos" Now, if I can say that...they can learn English!!
K, Edmond - Dec 3, 2007 8:43 PM
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I did not use God and never will. I'll leave that tactic to the extreme right, but I'll stand by not wanting Oklahoma to become a sanctuary state or a neo-nazi state. There is a difference between myself and Rep. Armes. His character is a lot better than mine and I do trust his judgements more than RT. Have a good evening and is it not great that we live in a country were we can disagree and respect each other.
JH, deep red creek - Dec 3, 2007 8:42 PM
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haskell... what does neo-nazi have to do with immigration law? Were our laws ok before 1804? Apparently Yes! But, did we enforce those laws? No! So is it neo-naziism if we decide to enforce them? You make it difficult to find respect for someone that didn't argue about the law before 1804, but now finds it so repugnant that we are actually going to enforce the law of the land. Brenda.. what a good point you made without even meaning to perhaps. We have trained a cadre of teachers to speak spanish, you can speak spanish, many of us have learned to speak spanish if we wanted too, but do they learn English? Can they? yes.. Do they.. NO!! good job Brenda
Mike, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 8:58 PM
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haskell... I was up at the same time.. so what? If you are a supporter of your Representative idol, then would he be using the terms McArthyism, or neo-nazi, or making a "sanctuary/neo-nazi comparison illustration? But, that's the way it is with those fighting against 1804, attacking the messenger, ignoring the message. Using any half-truths, name calling, invoking God somehow into it, all for what? So that people that came here illegaly can stay because they say they can? Well, we, the citizens and our duly elected officials say.. NO YOU CAN'T.
Mike, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 8:24 PM
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Sayed, sounds like you may be here illegally? I am an American & most of the people posting here probably are, I personally am not embarrased by this law, but very proud of Oklahoma for taking this step forward. I do hope that ENGLISH becomes the language of this nation. It is a shame that we even have to have someone put this in writing but until it is, I guess the non English speaking people will not get the message. Scott if you had a child in public school that was being affected by illegal immigration would you care then ???? This is not about religion, forefathers or anything else you want to use to justify breaking the law , it is about illegal immigration & the fact that most of America is sick of it. Gustavo said in his post that we did not understand the culture & philosophy & that the illegals look at this as stolen land & are fighting to take it back, I do not care nor do I think that it is stolen land & we owe Mexico nothing, but with this mentality why do they think we should just turn our heads & let them takeover????? Most importantly why do you not take up for & fight for our nation !!!!! Sooner or later those that always take up for the underdog will also become the underdog.
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Dec 3, 2007 7:16 PM
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English does need to be the offical language of not just Oklahoma, but the entire nation;however, education needs to take the lead and require along with four years of English, four years of the prominent foreign language in that area. Example, Oklahoma would require four years of Spanish. James from Del City: Early this morning before most of you city folks even thought about getting out of bed, I posted about Don Armes. Don has more class and character than RT could ever hope to have. Don does not have a personal agenda. He concern is Oklahoma, all of Oklahoma..
JH, deep red creek - Dec 3, 2007 7:01 PM
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AS FAR AS ENGLISH BEING THE STATE LANGUAGE GOES, that was the language border to border prior to the arrivals of the illegals. It has AWAYS been ENGLISH ! The old saying is; " When In Rome, Do As The Romans Do." Why have multiple languages ? Doen't make sense, causes communication failures, one language saves the tax payers money, and much problems for those burdened. I SUPPORT REP TERRILL IN HIS ENDEAVOR TO MAKE IT RIGHT FOR THE RECORD AND THE LEGAL CITIZENS OF OKLAHOMA USA !
James, Del City - Dec 3, 2007 6:43 PM
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RELIGION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS LAW ! For those who believe it does, READ the BIBLE, Book Of ROMANS, where we are told to obey the government and it's laws !!! That's what God willed !!!!
James, Del City - Dec 3, 2007 6:31 PM
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THANK YOU REP. TERRILL OR HAVING THE GUTS TO REPRESENT THE LEGAL CITIZENS OF OKLAHOMA USA !
James, Del City - Dec 3, 2007 6:29 PM
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Correction ( INFORE ) INFORCE THE LAW !!!
James, Del City - Dec 3, 2007 6:27 PM
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HB 1804 waswritten for the good of the many, NOT the few ( illegals ). State Law Makers drew the line in the sand where wasteful spending was taking place. NOW INFORE THE LAW !!! It sounds like the Rep Ames from Faxon has a farm and employs illegals....... Perhaps he should be voted out of office next term elections!!
James, Del City - Dec 3, 2007 6:26 PM
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Oklahoma Christians are first-rate hypocrites. I am sure this is exactly what Jesus would do. Is this what it means to be a Christian?
Many Americans are busy shopping for clothes. The kids in this country want to work at Abercrombie or some other trendy store for $6 and do not want to do the dirty work.
Wait till this bill hurts Oklahoma's economy.
This bill is an embarrassment to American values and ideals.
S, Norman - Dec 3, 2007 5:22 PM
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Sandy, you can check their birthplaces, but I believe all but a handlful of our founding fathers were born on the N. American continent in the location we now call the original 13 colonies. (I think it was 8 or 10 of the 40 signers of the Declaration are foreign born.)Until the Declaration of Independence, they were all British Citizens.
Concerned, Central Oklahoma - Dec 3, 2007 4:47 PM
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Sorry...I meant Patricia.
JoJo, Cobb, OK - Dec 3, 2007 4:44 PM
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Sharon, I didn't say that checking income levels was wrong. I'm wholeheartedly in support of the amendment to OHLAP. People that more than double their income should pay for their own kid's tuition. In fact, I'd use that extra cash to get my kid into a decent private school. I just said that Terrill's response was that of a childish demagogue. I'm in support of most of 1804, but that doesn't change the way its author sounds in this article's quotes. Nor that public schools shouldn't enforce immigration law. Nor that state legislatures have no place determining US Citizenship except in influencing Congress.
JoJo, Cobb, OK - Dec 3, 2007 4:43 PM
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Founding fathers gained theirs??? Huh!!!! What constitution or amendment??? They just came here as I recall. Or were sent here as the case may be.
Paris, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 4:27 PM
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Cale, of OKC, thanks for your information on Randy Terrill & his character. I also agree that majority opinion is not always ethically right or legally enforceable. In fact I feel that it is the function of the government to protect & ensure the rights of all citizens, regardless of the majority opinion. Of course, the compliment to that is, citizens can lose said rights by committing illegal acts. Loss of life for committing a murder, and such. I also believe that there are inalienable human rights that all people SHOULD have, but often do not under some forms of government. And as I understand the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, birth on American soil confers citizenship. It's how our founding fathers gained theirs. And if some are speaking of the "subject to the jurisdiction, thereof" clause, I don't believe the courts have ruled on how that clause applies to the 'anchor' babies in recent years. If I recall the dates correctly, citations of court cases supporting this as the exclusionary clause all end in the 1940's. Since then, the US has begun to recognize dual citizenship. Check the US State Department website & search for dual citizenship, if you don't agree.
Concerned, Central Oklahoma - Dec 3, 2007 4:17 PM
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Concerned, Central Oklahoma - Dec 3, 2007 4:17 PM
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Concerned, Central Oklahoma - Dec 3, 2007 4:17 PM
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Concerned, Central Oklahoma - Dec 3, 2007 4:17 PM
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Want to see your pro-Illegal Alien future? Vicente Fox says he continues to support amnesty for illegal aliens. He also endorsed the comments made by his successor, Felipe Calderon, that Mexico extends beyond its borders and wherever there is a Mexican, Mexico is there. (from Lou Dobbs)
K.L., warr acres - Dec 3, 2007 3:49 PM
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I think he has read it. I think it is you that haven't. I really don't care if Randy Terrill is only out for Randy. At least he took a very popular theme and ran with it. What is wrong with that? At least he was aware of what was going on and did not put his head in in the sand. What ever the reason it is past due. We have begged, cried, pleaded for someone to listen.
Paris, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 3:48 PM
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Sandy, I think Rep. Terrill should read it.
Matthew, Venice - Dec 3, 2007 3:43 PM
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I've known Randy Terrill since he was a kid and wouldn't vote for him for home-room monitor. Terrill is for Terrill and will do whatever is necessary to promote Terrill. He sponsored legislation that he knew would be popular with the majority of people in this state. Illegal duh is illegal. Well, it's a tad more complicated than that and the bill will not stand up under constitutional review. Terrill didn't care and look at his approval ratings. Now he is threatening the regents with an audit and the sheep will follow blindly. The sad thing about that is that is that the requirements need to be looked at but one doesn't threaten those one is trying to convince. Remember that Jefferson Davis and Joseph McCarthy had plenty of support and were DEAD WRONG. Randy wants what's best for Randy and it doesn't matter if he's right or wrong. I would urge those of you who see this idiot as the second-coming to talk to people who really know this guy. If Randy came out in support of anything I also supported, I would go back and research again just because I know what a charlatan he is. He could teach Richard and Oral some new tricks.
Cale, oklahoma city - Dec 3, 2007 3:41 PM
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Want to see your pro-Illegal Alien future? Read in Houston Chronicle about University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston being drained by illegal aliens, taking the health care away from legal citizens.
K.L., warr acres - Dec 3, 2007 3:37 PM
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Gus, maybe you can get rich selling up close and personal selfguided tours in LA to some who think all of the illegals are hardworking upstanding citizens. that is to say nothing of the second generation that have been raised to have absolutly no respect for our laws what so ever. We have enough problems with out taking on more.
Paris, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 3:31 PM
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Gus, maybe you can get rich selling up close and personal selfguided tours in LA to some who think all of the illegals are hardworking upstanding citizens. that is to say nothing of the second generation that have been raised to have absolutly no respect for our laws what so ever. We have enough problems with out taking on more.
Paris, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 3:30 PM
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Matthew , even if Randy terrill has an agenda if he runs for a higher office you can bet he will have plenty of votes because he makes things happen. Gustavo, what is your point ?? Why are you moving here?
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Dec 3, 2007 3:26 PM
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Those of you who 100 per cent support HB1804 have the same right to say or post your opinion as I do to voice my opposition to it. My oposition to it does not make me any less an Oklahoman or American than any of you. There is not one of us that can say we have not driven over the speed limit, failed to use our seat belt or did an Oklahoma stop at a stop sign. No one or no law is perfect, you will always have a majority and a minority, but whose to say that sometimes the minorities opinion may be valid. Be thankful that we live in a county for now that we can disagree without being monitored by the federal or state government.
JH, deep red creek - Dec 3, 2007 3:22 PM
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Matthew read the 14th amendment.....
Paris, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 3:20 PM
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All of you are funny in Oklahoma. All of you should listen to each other, it's amazing. The article about La Reconquista and Aztlan is true to a point. Some people see it as land stolen and they wish to take it back. LA isn't Baghdad yet, but it's getting there. I know the advocates say "all of them are hardworking people", well that's not true. My family came legally and we're being grouped in with those that didn't. There's even animosity towards all of us because we are legal. It's sort of like we gave in to the White Man instead of fighting the man. Those of you who don't understand the culture or philosophy, come out to California and I can show you what's going on. I'm not going to take you on the guided tour either, I'll show you the real LA. Anyway, the word is out on Oklahoma and many citizens are considering moving there. People in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California are spreading the word to each other to move to Oklahoma because of the new law. My family is also planning to move to Oklahoma.
J.T.(I), Norman - Dec 3, 2007 3:18 PM
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Terrill wants to pass legislation that would usurp the 14th Amendment? Sure, that's realistic. What a waste of time and money. It proves he's nothing more than an alarmist/opportunist with a transparent desire to reach higher office clothed in his "concern" for Oklahoma.
Matthew, Venice - Dec 3, 2007 3:18 PM
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Concerned, I think this is called fence riding. Can't please everyone. My husband is a business owner and I work for a company that employees independent contractors. I see absolutly no hardship to a business ower. I would not even employee someone to mow my yard or work with my horses that did not have a green card. This was way before HB 1804 was passed. Not so hard to follow. Talk about bleeding heart. Where are all of the people when the illegals are worked 10 to 12 hours a day???? When their children are left in hot cars on a building site. Yes, right behind where I work.
Paris, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 3:17 PM
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I totally support this bill. Best think Okla has ever done
virginia, helena - Dec 3, 2007 3:09 PM
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Concerned, I agree that this is a larger problem than just in Oklahoma, but if the federal government will not take a stand then each state should have a right to put some type of law into effect. I think that the illegal person should have a felony the same as the person caught harboring the illegal. This country is broken in a lot of different areas, but someone has to start the ball moving & maybe this is a step in the right direction. Sandy the guy calling himself Jason is really a guy named Todd who does this sort of thing quite often, he really is not credible & mostly I just try to ignore him but he never goes away.
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Dec 3, 2007 3:08 PM
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Those of you arguing that you do NOT know anyone who disagrees with HB1804 may want to use an alternate justification of your opinion. When you say that, it simply looks as if you surround yourself entirely with like minded people. If that is your situation then of course you won't hear any dissent. I feel this is a very complicated issue that requires our borders to be secure, 1st & foremost. I know people on both sides of this issue for a variety of personal reasons, and they are all US & Oklahoma citizens. On various occasions, I've seen my friends &/or family yelling at each other, with me right in the middle of the fray. Some of us have been friends of one another for many years (>10) and in some cases we are related to one another. Personally, I don't think the solution can be either of the extreme positions, whether that be 'pro-undocumented' or 'anti-illegal.' The solution is somewhere on a middle road, but I guess everyone has to get through the yelling, threatening & hand-wringing part before they can come to a WORKABLE solution to our national and state problem with the entire immigration system, not just the illegal stuff. It IS interesting to me that a citizen in Oklahoma caught 'harboring' an illegal alien will be charged with a felony, but the illegal will have a misdemeanor charge for being here without legal papers. I guess it's the same with drug trafficking, I just never equated the everyday Oklahomans that do violate HB1804 with human traffickers. Maybe they are, but my friends who are compassionate about illegals certainly don't seem like that to me.
Concerned, Central Oklahoma - Dec 3, 2007 2:58 PM
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Concerned, Central Oklahoma - Dec 3, 2007 2:58 PM
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Jason, how would you know what Patricia or anyone else pays in taxes. Does not matter the amount. It is the fact she pays. What a way to try to get a point across. What is with this low down name calling?
Paris, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 2:42 PM
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Todd, I would venture to say that you have no job & you pay no taxes, you are childish & uneducated to say the very least, so unless you have something of importance to say go have a beer or hit the casino. I agree with Charles in Tulsa the media for the most part are ridiculous & why we keep buying into it, is beyond me & this includes me.
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Dec 3, 2007 2:39 PM
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All the pro-Illegal Alien people are what frightens me.
K.L., warr acres - Dec 3, 2007 2:18 PM
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hey patricia...the day you start paying a 10th of the taxes i do, then your opinion will count....until then just keep your sheets covering your pathetic fat face.
Randy, Moore - Dec 3, 2007 2:16 PM
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9-11 is the catch-all to frighten. Those people were in this country legally. So, your point would be??????????????????????

Cale, oklahoma city - Dec 3, 2007 2:10 PM
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Racist Mexican Gangs "Ethnic Cleansing" Blacks In L.A.
Latino thugs indiscriminately murder blacks regardless of gang membership, genocidal purge aligns with radical Aztlan theology -

Prison Planet -
Paul Joseph Watson -

Racist Mexican gangs are indiscriminately targeting blacks who aren't even involved in gang culture, as part of an orchestrated ethnic cleansing program that is forcing black people to flee Los Angeles. The culprit of the carnage is the radical Neo-Nazi liberation theology known as La Raza, which calls for the extermination of all races in America besides Latinos, and is being bankrolled by some of the biggest Globalists in the U.S. Aztlan's goal, known as La Reconquista, is to cede and take over the entirety of the southern and western states by any means necessary and impose a Communist militant dictatorship. President Bush's blanket amnesty program goes a long way to helping the extremists achieve their aim.



J.T.(I), Norman - Dec 3, 2007 2:08 PM
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Devona's article is pure propaganda.She is the so-called "diversity reporter" at the biased Oklahoman.As we all know this newspaper is for cheap labor.HB1804 is highly popular and if anyone doubts it have the idiotic Oklahoman commission a poll on the subject-with the poll question fairly framed.This "article' picks a couple of turncoat republicans and the cheap labor Chamber in an attempt to confirm it's biased point.This state is sick of illegal alien lawbreakers.The Oklahoman is a sad excuse for a newspaper.Devona is an apologist for illegal aliens and has NO credibility as a journalist.
charles, tulsa - Dec 3, 2007 1:58 PM
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I fully support the stand Oklahoma has taken on immigration. I can sympathize with illegals who want to come to our country (and state) but they must pursue immigration following our existing laws. Surely we learned something from 9/11 about the necessity to know who is in our country.
Sharon, Nashoba - Dec 3, 2007 1:48 PM
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What Rosa Parks did was "illegal" as well. Some laws have to be broken in the name of morality. Put any racist issue to a popular vote in this state and you will go back to Jim Crow. The majority is OFTEN wrong.
Cale, oklahoma city - Dec 3, 2007 1:37 PM
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Todd instead of sending Randy Terrill back to Alva why don't you consider getting some mental help & quit impersonating Jason?? As for Amy you are a bleeding heart & evidently have no regard for the law. You sit in judgement of those that do not want our state & country taken over by illegal immigrants. We have hungry ,sick children right here in our state that could use our tax dollars instead of giving them up to the illegals & their ten children. You bleeding hearts make me sick & will prove to be the down fall of this nation!!!
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Dec 3, 2007 1:22 PM
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Todd instead of sending Randy Terrill back to Alva why don't you consider getting some mental help & quit impersonating Jason?? As for Amy you are a bleeding heart & evidently have no regard for the law. You sit in judgement of those that do not want our state & country taken over by illegal immigrants. We have hungry ,sick children right here in our state that could use our tax dollars instead of giving them up to the illegals & their ten children. You bleeding hearts make me sick & will prove to be the down fall of this nation!!!
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Dec 3, 2007 1:21 PM
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Did I say scourge? I would protect my children from any lawbreaker. Do you realize how much this is costing our children. Don't hold my childrens education back because the boy or girl next to them can't speak english. Wait at the emergency room bacause the woman in front of me can't speak english. Go through the check out line and watch who pays with Access and how much english most speak.I want my children and grandchildren to have the education I pay for. I resent all of the special services that are given to illegal, law breaking families. I ask a lady in our office why she and her children (15 and 17) still speak their native language almost all of the time and she looked at me like I grew two heads. This is our language, you should learn to speak spanish, everyone should. Now, just why would I do that? Por que haria eso? Just in case you wondered.
Paris, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 1:17 PM
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the pro 1804 folks are racists. you can not argue with them. they will be close minded until the day they die. terrill will want these people to get him elected into a higher office. repeal randy terrill and send him back to alva.
Randy, Moore - Dec 3, 2007 1:10 PM
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I think that I would break the law to feed my children. I understand fully what is going on. My eyes are wide open.Illegal Immigrants are not the scourge that you profess them to be.
amy, oklahoma city - Dec 3, 2007 1:06 PM
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I would protect my children from anything if I could. I would give my life for them. It is our children this is hurting. Grow up Amy. Look at what is going on. What are they teaching their children? Break the law and you can get away with it.
Paris, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 12:53 PM
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No one said the weren't. What is said is they are breaking the law. They have not rights? Nada, zip, zero. You take them in, you pay for them. I'm sick of people who think the can flaunt the law in my face and do as they please and disrespect me, my family and my counrty. What the dickins do you think would happen to any of us who did this in Mexico or any other country? Maybe if they had of come here and learned to blend in with our culture and act for one moment like the were a little grateful to be here we would not feel this way. Diversity is a wonderful thing and I am all for it. Down right disrespect is another thing altogether.
Paris, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 12:50 PM
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Many mothers have crossed deserts and rivers to feed their children. Who is to say that you wouldnt do the same to feed yours.
amy, oklahoma city - Dec 3, 2007 12:46 PM
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I understand it is "hurting peoples feelings" truth is illegal is illegal. For once stand up and enforce the law. I could care what race, sex or whatever. If you are here illegally then take the time like so many others and become a citizen. If anything instead of booting them help them become citizens. The ones that cant show who they really are then send them back to where they supposedly said they came from.
Christopher, Blanchard - Dec 3, 2007 12:45 PM
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Oh of course but illegal immigrants arent our subhuman enemies they are human beings just like you and me.
amy, oklahoma city - Dec 3, 2007 12:43 PM
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Mothers are fierce. I would never want to tangle with one who was protecting her child.
Paris, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 12:42 PM
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Well one would think that mothers would be a bit more compassionate.
amy, oklahoma city - Dec 3, 2007 12:41 PM
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Who better to be againt illegals Amy?
Paris, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 12:35 PM
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Everyone that is interested you can contact the representatives & make sure they hear you loud & clear. I just spent thirty minutes doing this, I contacted everyone of them to let them know how I would be voting in the future & it sure would not be for anyone that does not stand up to illegal immigration.
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Dec 3, 2007 12:35 PM
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Oh, Harry Truman would do that. I grew up 4 blocks from his house in Independence. Never failed to see him sitting in front of the Library and would call you over and want to know what your were reading. A little bit of a gruff man to a child. He is the one who told me to always stand up for what you believe in and never be ashamed to do it. Also, that the little man built this country and don't let the big man take it away. My family not Democrat, however he was much respected by my parents.
Paris, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 12:33 PM
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Mothers Against Illegal Aliens?!?!?!?! You have got to be kidding me!
amy, oklahoma city - Dec 3, 2007 12:26 PM
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Sandy, if you disagreed with Harry Truman, he would listen to you opionion, weigh the issue and then do what he believed to be the best thing for the country.
If you disagree with Rep. Terrill, he treatens to have you audited. He reminds me of some one in the past, Joseph McCarthy.
JH, deep red creek - Dec 3, 2007 12:19 PM
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Be careful Chris I know several "white" Americans who proudly mix concrete, drywall, do landscaping, work at fast food resturaunts while putting themselves through college, become maids etc. I even did some of this while going through college. These jobs are not exclusive to immigrants of any race! What does happen is if the immigrant is illegal the employer does not have to pay them minimum wage. Who is the illegal immigrant going to complain to? There are some things wrong with 1804, but the premise is still a sound one.
Mikki, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 11:57 AM
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Look....look....political correctness is rearing its head....even here in the words below. "Lawlessness" is now "lawfullness". If you speak out for protection of the community, you are "chicken little" or "nazi" or "racist" or "judgemental". One truth was spoken though....as this process goes on, rights will be lost. The people supporting political correctness by fighting this bill will take away your right to protect your family and your right to verbalize the need to protect your family.
K.L., warr acres - Dec 3, 2007 11:54 AM
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Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Dec 3, 2007 11:53 AM
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Scott,Please explain why it is wrong to check your income level every year to see if you are still eligible for free tuition? Why is it wrong to want someone that gets free tuition to have a decent GPA so that they are more apt to not waste this free money ??? They check my income level every year that my son attends college it really isnt a problem unless you just want a free college education.I don't think if you make more than 50,000 a year you deserve it the same as the guy that only makes 40,000. Where am I going wrong here on my thinking???
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Dec 3, 2007 11:50 AM
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The law is the law it is so simple. We are not talking about jaywalking here, we are talking about people who Illegally cross an international border. We have no idea who they are or what kind of people they are. I am not just describing Mexican citizens, our country has always been attractive to all the world. English French German Chinese just to name a few. I worked all over the world and have been questioned by many people about living in our Great country and our great state. This is not about a race of lawbreakers but anyone who breaks our laws. If you want to become an United States citizen Great wonderful I welcome you with open arms. We as US citizens should wake up each and every day and thank God that we were born Here. To become a citizen should not be taken lightly and should require an extensive process. We cannot afford to make becoming a US citizen a cheap and easy process. Don't come to our country just for a wage but come here because you want to be one of us. Learn our language learn our history, Learn what it means to be a citizen of the greatest country in the world. I am so tired of hearing and reading about how some people here are so embarrased by our country and our state. Hey I it bothers you that bad then please feel free to leave there is a great big world out there go for it! You will find that Dorothy had it figured out when she said theres no place like home. So please don't cheapen the American dream.
J, nirvana - Dec 3, 2007 11:46 AM
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Sandy, that is so cool my son & daughter both live in Wilmington!
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Dec 3, 2007 11:42 AM
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Look....look....political correctness is rearing its head....even here in the words below. "Lawlessness" is now "lawfullness". If you speak out for protection of the community, you are "chicken little" or "nazi" or "racist" or "judgemental". One truth was spoken though....as this process goes on, rights will be lost. The people supporting political correctness will take away your right to protect your family and your right to verbalize the need to protect your family.
K.L., warr acres - Dec 3, 2007 11:41 AM
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Hey Kristie, if you hate it here move......maybe to Mexico!
Bean, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 11:38 AM
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I don't think he is getting out of hand at all. We seemed to have elected someone who is as sick and tired of the garbage that goes on here as the general public is. If he runs for President he has my vote. He is the only one who seems to have listened when we spoke. Let's just see how long it takes someone to fish out some dirt on him or what ever it take to shut him up. Do we have another Harry Truman in the making? I sure hope so.
Paris, Oklahoma City - Dec 3, 2007 11:35 AM
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