Mark Henderson, teaching and preaching minister at Quail Springs Church of Christ, recently shared information about the church's plans to add a worship service that will include musical instruments. The new service, which begins Sunday, is a break from Church of Christ tradition.
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Henderson said the decision came through lengthy prayer and study. Even so, about 300 people left the church, 14401 N May, in opposition of the change.
Here Henderson tells why and how the decision to add the new worship service was made, along with the congregation's hopes for the future:
Q:Please explain the position that Church of Christ congregations typically take regarding using instruments in worship services.
A:Historically the position was — and there's different parts of it — but I think the primary piece of it was that there is no New Testament authority for using instruments in worship.
You have a lot of Old Testament references to it, but when you look at references you might attribute to worship in the New Testament, you don't see them mentioned, and people interpreted that silence as intentional.Therefore, it was restrictive.
So, the position was it's wrong to use instruments in worship because if you use them, you're basically adding to what the New Testament teaches — it's unauthorized.
So the historic position has been there's no authority to use instruments in worship, therefore we don't do it, and those who use instruments are sinning and really out of step with God, and therefore we don't fellowship with them.
Q:When did your church decide to begin offering this service?
A:The decision was made here, I believe it was announced last March, March 2007. The elders said they had been through a period of discussion and prayer and study, and had come to the conclusion that we would add an instrumental service. For the last several months, we've been just talking through some different issues and working out some logistics, when would it happen, what would the schedule look like and things of that nature.
Q:What kind of response have you received from, first your congregation, as far as offering this service, and then from the Church of Christ congregation at large?
A: In the congregation it's been difficult. I think just about any pastor will tell you that significant change in a congregation is difficult. So we had some people who have been very enthusiastic about it and other people who have been very resistant to it. It's been a painful and difficult process. One good example of what we went through in 2007 was the day that one of the elders announced that they arrived at this conclusion, that we were going forward, that this would be a part of our future, a certain percentage of the congregation broke out in applause and a number of people got up and left in tears. And so it's been like that.
As far as other congregations of Churches of Christ, we've received very little direct feedback from them. It's not a popular choice among them, but we're not having difficult conversations or getting mail from them.
Q:What will happen Jan. 27? Do you have certain instruments that you will allow in the service?
A:We had done an activity here in the past that we called Worship Night. It would usually happen on Saturday night when we did it, so we already had kind of a band. And we have a worship style here, even in our a cappella service, we've tended toward more contemporary Christian worship music. So in some ways we weren't really re-inventing the wheel; we were just further developing what we have done before. Our typical band is going to look like a drum set, a keyboard and usually two or three guitars. We have some other gifted musicians here that we will incorporate, depending on what kind of music we're doing.
Q:How did you respond to those congregation members who were upset about this particular change?
A:You just do the best you can. We, the other leaders and I, would meet with anybody who would meet with me. I had conversations with individuals that might last two hours-plus and really whatever it took to try get to a level of comfort and understanding, we would try to do. Sometimes you could, and sometimes you couldn't.
Q:What do you hope to accomplish with this worship service?
A:There are two things that we really hope will come from this. One is we want to keep more of our people that were leaving to go to instrumental churches. One of the ways I would describe it is the way we handled it doctrinally. We essentially said you are free to worship with instruments and you are free to worship without them. From just a doctrinal biblical standpoint, we, for a number of years, have treated this as a nonissue. And so to me it seems like we were giving our people freedom to leave. We were saying you're free to worship with instruments — just not here. So one of things we're trying to do is for those people who really connect more with instrumental music, even of our own people, we're trying to give them a greater opportunity to stay and to worship and to serve and be a part of the church here.
The other thing we're trying to do is to reach some people that we've been missing. We don't do polls and surveys or exit interviews with people who are guests here, so all I can share is anecdotal evidence from some of our members. It's interesting: One member will say, “I brought a guest, and they didn't have any concerns about our worship style. They said the singing was beautiful, and they couldn't believe how impressed they were with the a cappella worship.” And another member would say, “I brought a guest, and they really liked the church and everything, but they're asking us what's the deal with the musical instruments, and I really can't get over this worship style.”
My hope is that we're going to do both really well and that either group can come and say “I connect with that. This is a place where I can worship and serve.”
Q:So to your congregation, this is about tradition and doing something different?
A: This isn't unique to Churches of Christ, but it happens in our churches where your tradition bumps into what you believe about freedom in Christ. In a situation like this, for some time it's an area where we believed we had freedom, but we wouldn't practice that freedom primarily because of our tradition.Then you get to a point where you say we're missing some people we believe we could reach. We're raising generations that leave us because they just don't buy this anymore, so maybe we ought to practice the freedom we believe we have. That's really what it came down to for us.
Q:Is there anything else you'd like to add?
A:One thing I would say about this is it was really a personal decision, not just for me but for our congregation and our leadership. I think in Churches of Christ, every congregation is going to have to chart their own course on this. One of the good things we have in churches of Christ is congregational autonomy; we don't have a denominational headquarters. We don't have anyone to tell us what we can and can't do. Each congregation has to decide on their own. We went through a painful process to make this decision. You know when we started this process, our average attendance was in the 900-950 arrange and by the time we finished, we were in the 600-650 range. And those numbers represent people and friends and family members, so we don't take it lightly, and others shouldn't either.
The other thing I would say is this is about us and what we believe, before God, is the best way for us to move into the future. We don't make any judgments about any other congregations about what they should or shouldn't do. Each one will have to chart that on their own as they're responsible for their decisions before God, as well.
Carla Hinton: 475-3480, chinton@oklahoman.com
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Sorry but I had to make a few corrections: I put down Col 3:15. But what I meant was Col 3:16) So the correct post should read as follows:
Following the logic of Eph 5:19 we can conclude that "yourselves" does not mean "meditate". We must not overlook the fact that we are given the same admonishion in Col 3:16. In Col 3:16 it clearly and simply instructs us to teach and admonish "one another" and not "meditate to yourselves". The word "yourselves" equals "one another". So the priciple stands: As we gather togher we are to speak to one another with words that teach and admonish each other in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs and with grace in our hearts unto God. Now the last part of Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 would be more logical as to being meditation, but not the first. The Bible is clear.
Following the logic of Eph 5:19 we can conclude that "yourselves" does not mean "meditate". We must not overlook the fact that we are given the same admonishion in Col 3:15. In Col 3:15 it clearly and simply instructs us to teach and admonish "one another" and not "meditate to yourselves". The word "yourselves" equals "one another". So the priciple stands: As we gather togher we are to speak to one another with words that teach and admonish each other in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs and with grace in our hearts unto God. Now the last part of Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 would be more logical as to being meditation, but not the first. The Bible is clear.
Following the logic of Eph 5:19 we can conclude that "yourselves" does not mean "meditate". We must not overlook the fact that we are given the same admonishion in Col 3:15. In Col 3:15 it clearly and simply instructs us to teach and admonish "one another" and not "meditate to yourselves". The word "yourselves" equals "one another". So the priciple stands: As we gather togher we are to speak to one another with words that teach and admonish each other in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs and with grace in our hearts unto God. Now the last part of Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 would be more logical as to being meditation, but not the first. The Bible is clear.
Following the logic of Eph 5:19 we can conclude that "yourselves" does not mean "meditate". We must not overlook the fact that we are given the same admonishion in Col 3:15. In Col 3:15 it clearly and simply instructs us to teach and admonish "one another" and not "meditate to yourselves". The word "yourselves" equals "one another". So the priciple stands: As we gather togher we are to speak to one another with words that teach and admonish each other in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs and with grace in our hearts unto God. Now the last part of Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 would be more logical as to being meditation, but not the first. The Bible is clear.
Lets follow the the logic of Eph 5:19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.". When we speak to "yourselves" do you do that out loud since you can hear your own thoughts. Could some one translate this to mean that nothing should be done out loud. Meditate => speak to yourselves. Now if it had speak to each other "in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." I could see this being related to normal singing. Using this verse could mean to mediate. Just some thoughts.
If you are a follower of God, you would be humble enough to set aside what you think and simply conform to His ways. This is what every person should do.
Patrick, I agree that the teaching and admonishing should be done to edify the brethren, but I do not agree that we should do it in a manner that transresses God's commandments to sing. The fact that musical instruments are added to the assembly's worship transgresses the command to sing. This isn't about what I think, Im simply looking at what the verse says Eph 5:19 "Speaking to yourselves in pslams, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." The verse does not say to play instruments. There is a clear distinction between playing an instrument and singing, wouldn't you agree? singing actual words and phrases teaches and admonishes. But playing a musical note? no. Im really not sure why you aregue against what the Bible says.
You correct wrote "I read Teach and Admonish as it relates to God's Word for any of the following: Doctrine, Correction, Reproof, and Instruction In Righteousness as can be found in 2Tim 3:16 (All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:)." I used the idea of "Teaching and admonishing" because it said to do this relative to Sing with grace. Notice that "scripture" is not a direct reference here. It is singing with grace relative to "Teaching and admonishing". So the question that comes to my mind is how does singing teach and admonish. Now here we will have a fruitful struggle in see what is really being said. How do we learn, what will make us learn the best. In my experience, I have see children learn complex ideas by using a song which has a pleasing tune. Now depending on your ability to sing, an instrument can be a help to make the music pleasant to learn, but it is not required. The goal here is learning and a lasting learning. How many jingles do we still retain after hearing them on the TV or radio years later and often even when we were not even trying to learn. Just some thoughts about what is being said and why. As always, I just want to think and be allowed to discuss the meaning of important verses of the Bible.
37“Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38“Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.” Luke 6:37-38. This verse point out that the type of things that you give out are given back to you by God. If you give evil or bad expect the same, but if you do good, then you can expect the same. So be full of GRACE and give good things according the the Grace that Jesus has given to all of us. I hope that this will help to clear the air and set a tone for our searching for the truth. We need to agree that we can disagree, and if it is due to another not yet being able to see what the other is saying then pray to God that He will open their eyes. At the same time, that does not mean that they have an evil heart, it just means that they do not understand like you and that is okay. Why you ask, because we are saved by GRACE, not by our head knowledge. We will not increase our standing by hurting the children of God, no matter who they are. Something to think about.
You SAID "you are trying to change God's Word into something liberal, vile, and different form what is written. If you are a member of the Lord's Church you need to be converted before you continue to claim Christianity because by your own words you have shown yourself to be of the ranks of the world for your desire to obey mans doctrines, your pride, and your self-seeking (1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.). Patrick, We stand on a solid rock of truth an you continually try to contend with God's Wisdom, so remember this Patrick:" Which is why I said "Notice Evil Eye, i.e., everything you see, you see as evil. This whole matter is centered about the idea of not agree with you about how we can worship. I have shown that the scripture Col 3:16 "Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts unto the Lord." What part of Grace have you been following. As you are having trouble following the thought "singing with grace in your hearts unto the Lord.", when you teach and admonish. This passage is about building up the people of God. You have used it to make division, Law and Commands. You are confused about GRACE.
There is no dispute about the word "psalm" as being defined as singing or playing, but there is despute about the application in the passage. I can't change the definition of a word so that I can be right, neither can I change God's Word to make me be right. Therefore, I must look at the context that surrounds the word. "Playing" does not fit the context of the verse. and when we are told to make melody in our heart it leaves no window for playing an instrument outside of the heart. We must sing with grace (which can mean the following: 1) grace 1a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
2) good will, loving-kindness, favour 2a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
3) what is due to grace 3a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
3b) the token or proof of grace, benefit
3b1) a gift of grace 3b2) benefit, bounty
4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward). Now which of those is fitting to sing with grace? When did I add a tradition of man? I read Teach and Admonish as it relates to God's Word for any of the following: Doctrine, Correction, Reproof, and Instruction In Righteousness as can be found in 2Tim 3:16 (All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:).
Ben, the scripture that you have posted is about "Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?" Defilement by external sources, Mar 7:6. Jesus's answer is "that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;" Mar 7:19 Instead Jesus show that real defilement is from the Heart of Man, "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:" Mar 7:23 . But notice the list of things that are from the heart of man. You have said "you are trying to change God's Word into something liberal, vile, and different from what is written" and where did that thought come from. See above. Notice Evil Eye, i.e., everything you see, you see as evil. This whole matter is centered about the idea of not agree with you about how we can worship. I have shown that the scripture Col 3:16 "Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts unto the Lord." Have several possible meanings for the words psalm, hymns, and spiritual songs. It is you that has added the tradition of Men. I found a reference in Greek literature of the same time and type which shows the same words being used as sing, and plucking a stringed instrument. This is side by side translation of the same problem words singing and to pluck an instrument which shows it is not exclusive and prohibitive. There are two other references that I did not even look up yet. As a side note, the function of this verse is not worship but “teaching and admonishing one another” with “grace in your hearts unto the Lord.” This last part is conditioned with grace. How do you translate GRACE. Find Fault? How do you read TEACH and ADMONISH. By being mean or cruel? You have lost you way in trying to lead someone to Christ. They cannot be driven. They must be shown the beauty, the freedom, and the hope that we have in Christ. All this is because of GRACE, I CANNOT EVER BE GOOD ENOUGH TO FORCE JESUS TO LOVE. Yet He gave his life for me, even me. Not that is something to SHOUT ABOUT!
Mar 9:40 (For he that is not against us is on our part.) So I guess Patrick is against God's Word because he shoots it down and gives his own philosophy in place of God's Wisdom, much like the Pharisees in this DIRECT QUOTE:(Mar 7:1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. Mar 7:2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
Mar 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. Mar 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. Mar 7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable. Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.) Patrick you are doing the same thing as the pharisees: When the Doctrine of God is preached you by your own mind and traditions try to make it say something that it does not. You blindly follow the traditions of man and worship God in vain. Lip service is not something that Jesus will accept on Judgement Day, that is why we need to keep His Commandments and His Law. Yes Patrick we do claim Law and Commands: The Law and Commands of the New Testament and if that is too conservitive for you thats too bad. You claim it's liberal to stick to God's Word but don't realize that being liberal with God's Word will only bring upon yourself greater condemnation :Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.) It is obvious that you dispise truth and that you are not a doer of God's Law and that you are contentious to those who preach God's Word and are prideful and unwilling to obey righteousness and the truth. You claim that you did not agree that instruments are required but you insistantly wrestle against the scriptures to your own destruction like the people Peter wrote about in 2Pe 3:16 (As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.) By doing this you have advocated and made it clear that what is in your heart is different from God's Word. You choose rather than obeying God to obey your heart: a place that Christ says evil things come from (Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.) and God says is foolish to follow (Pro 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.) You continually advocate your mind and not God's Word. Just like these people (Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.) you are trying to change God's Word into something liberal, vile, and different form what is written. If you are a member of the Lord's Church you need to be converted before you continue to claim Christianity because by your own words you have shown yourself to be of the ranks of the world for your desire to obey mans doctrines, your pride, and your self-seeking (1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.). Patrick, We stand on a solid rock of truth an you continually try to contend with God's Wisdom, so remember this Patrick: (Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?) You can't run from or defeat God's Word with Your Mind, for nothing will stand in comparison to God's Glory.
"I pray that you might humble yourself so that you will be able to receive the Word of God" and "Again if you had digested the milk (basic principles) you'd be capable of understanding that." and "I would remind you Patrick that Satan has always used the pride of life to prevent people from having the type of attitude that would enable them to submit to God's authority instead of their own." Try looking in a mirror. It is only by LOVE that the Lost will be shown the Loving Jesus. Your continued example will not draw anyone to Jesus. Instead, you seek to show your own self righteousness.
Very few of your usages of scripture are direct quotes, instead you suggest what they are saying, so who is add to or taking away. If you wish to make a point, only by way of scripture, not opinion of that the scriptures says. For instance, (see Eph 2:10, Titus 3:8, Jm 2, etc.) is a reference to what exactly. You accused me of giving opinions. Check my posts, I try to give the verse directly and let the reader decide. You point to a verse, but do not show the verse. Let the Bible speak, and not you. If your truth is so obvious to the reader, let the Bible speak. By the way I never suggested that I believed in musical instruments being required! Instead, I suggested that they are not condemned. It is you that has gone to the sing with your heart is exclusive to all other methods which is not true both in the OT and NT. All Worship requires the heart to be engaged even in the OT. You continue to add your LAW and condemnation to any other idea. Staining at a fly. Back to belief, if it is a work of God, then am I an observer or a generator of that Believe.
Patrick believing (faith itself) is a work...a work of God (a work REQUIRED-that means necessary or essential and approved by God) Jn 6:27-29-as are all the works we perform in obedience to God's commands (see Eph 2:10, Titus 3:8, Jm 2, etc.). Again if you had digested the milk (basic principles) you'd be capable of understanding that. Patrick you have consistently shown yourself to be in error, contradiction, and ignorance and I would encourage you, like others have encouraged you, to study to show yourself approved (but why do that if you are free from it and don’t have to obey it….). Remember the ignorant servant and the one who knew better were both punished for their actions (God doesn't want you to be ignorant of His Word and Will). It's painful to watch someone deviate from God's Word to the extent Patrick has and make such outrageous statements, claims and misapplication of Scriptures to justify their man made practices. Over and over your errors and contradictions have been exposed (you will not even acknowledge them!!! you have yet to apologize for your dishonesty earlier in the discussion...dishonestly that lost you any credibility right off the bat….credibility that you’ve continued to lose as this has progressed) and over and over you and your arguments have been defeated...not by me..but by the Word of God which wins every time Heb 4:12. You've tried to run from it forgetting that it is QUICK and POWERFUL. I would remind you Patrick that Satan has always used the pride of life to prevent people from having the type of attitude that would enable them to submit to God's authority instead of their own. I pray that you might humble yourself so that you will be able to receive the Word of God (Jm 1:21) and that the reception of Truth will set you free from your error and will also enable you to begin rightly dividing the Word of God instead of grossly misusing and abusing it like you've repeatedly been shown to do. Your last two posts have revealed a LOT about you Patrick and your attitude toward God and his Word. I pray that your attitude will change because it's the type of attitude that will prevent one from obeying Jn 14:15. I seek to please God by obeying His laws and keeping His commands (you accuse me of being a Pharasaic legalist for having this attitude!!!...does that make you an illegalist?????), that's the only way He's ever been pleased (throughout time...before the OT, during the OT, and during the NT). You go ahead and try to "free yourself from His Word" and please Him without keeping His commands (a study of God's Word would show you that's never worked!). I will continue to express my love for God by studying, teaching, and keeping His Word (Jn 14:15). Patrick your lack of knowledge prevents you from understanding that you can’t have love without obedience (please read Jn 14:15! See also Gal 5:6….faith WORKING through love!!!!). You want to talk about love over and over without understanding that those who are “keeping His commands” (you call them legalistic Pharisees) are the ones who LOVE Him! If anyone is acting like a Pharisee it is the one who is offended by God’s Word and is seeking to have “freedom” from it…Patrick you are the one doing exactly what the Pharisees did! It's very clear who is unhappy and it is the one who's convicted and who's attitude of rebellion towards God's Word has been exposed, the one who just accused me of what he’s been doing “adding to what is there”!!!! (sing and make melody with [insert instruments]). YES Patrick, trying to free yourself from doing what God wants you to do (God's Word) is too liberal for me, I wish you had convictions that made you feel the same. Remember those who have errered from the truth can be restored Jm 5:19-20. I pray for your restoration and that you will overcome the prideful attitude that's hindering you from understanding, rightly dividing, and keeping His commands.
Here is the Commandment of Jesus "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another." Jn 15:9-17. Twice Jesus said that His command for us is that we should Love one another to the point of dying for each other. Now there is a command in the NT to follow. You want to return to OT commands. Are you adding to the commands beyond what is here. I have shown in the last two postings Believe and Love are the new commands. Just too simple? Too liberal for you. Why?
Your words are the same as I would have expected to have been said to Jesus or anyone who did not bow down to the wisdom of the Pharisees and their truth. For all that Jesus said and did, it did not matter in the light of "Their Truth". “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” Jn 2:20. “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jn 3:4 “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Jn 3:10 "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness" Jn 3:11. All because it is different from what you are wanting to hear does not mean that it is of no value. Your OT Law and commandments approach makes for no freedom in Christ. No Grace. No mistakes can be made ever, allowed for, in a word "Perfect". Prideful attitude anyone? Jesus said He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jn 3:18. But that gives too much freedom for you, you demand a return to LAW and COMMANDS and self justification by works. "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." Jn 3:19. "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Jn 5:24". Too easy isn't it. You want to explain what Jesus really meant. How sad and unhappy you really are. "How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Jn 5:44".
It appears we've reached a point where the Truth has been taught and defended and God's Word teaches that we can't force the one who's in error and has heard the Truth to have enough faith to obediently respond to it. As this discussion has progressed Patrick has become more and more prideful (a sign of conviction and frustration when one is unable to justify their practices and doctrines when they have been shown to be in rebellion to God) and his attitude has prevented him from receiving the Truth (Jm 1:21), the same type of prideful attitude that prevents one from offering God true worship (Jn 4, see also Uzziah). The one thing Patrick has been consistent in doing is giving his opinions and "paraphrases" (which over and over have been shown to contradict God's commands-contradictions he's been shown over and over and to which he can't answer or defend and has simply chosen to either ignore them or change his story) and grossly twisting and wrongly dividing the Word of God. I hope that he'll develop (Heb 5:12-14) to a point where he understands basic prinicples of truth and will then be able to digest "meatier" portions of God's Word, a point once reached that will cause him to no longer be looking for just "thou shalt not's" (Nadab and Abihu..."He didn't say I couldn't!")instead of a "thus saith the Lord" (sing and make melody with your hearts). It is unfortunate to see someone who seemingly is interested in worshipping God but not in Spirit and in Truth and who is more concerned with what's pleasing to man instead of what's pleasing to God. The New Testament makes it very clear that singing with our voices and making melody with the instrument of our hearts is pleasing and commanded/authorizd by God (Eph 5:19, Col 3:16). It's unfortunate to see people who fail to learn (Rom 15:4) the principles and lessons behind such heartbreaking stories as Nadab and Abihu (Law of Exclusions-when God specifies one thing that excludes all others!), Cain, and Uzziah. You go ahead and take the same risk those men took but I'll be content to worship God in spirit and in truth so my worship will be pleasing and acceptable instead of in vain. One thing is sure, we will all give an account before God and many who claimed to love Him and know Him will cry out "Lord Lord" and will hear "I never knew you depart from me ye that work iniquity" (Mt 7:21:23). When you humble yourself and have a heart that loves God and His Word and is interested in keeping His commandments (Jn 14:15) instead of looking for ways to liberate yourself from God's law I'd be happy to continue this discussion and assist you in learning to rightly divide the Word of God but until then I could quote God's Word over and over and it wouldn't be received because of your attitude towards God's Word. There comes a point where one would be "casting their pearls to swine" (Mt 7:6) and I believe we've reached that point. May we remember Christ's words in Jn 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments". May we remember that we all have a responsibility to judge righteously and restore those who have errered from the truth (Jm 5:19-20)-it would be unloving and hateful to not seek to restore and assist vain worshippers and those who have wandered off the path of rightousness and are wandering in the wildnerness of sin because they have deviated from God's Word and pattern of worship (those who have gone after "Jereboam's worship"). Remember (contrary to what Patrick has stated) we are commanded to teach them to observe EVERYTHING that our Lord has commanded (Mt 28:20). Patrick I hope that you will find the Truth and that it will set you free (Jn 8:31-32).
Patrick, you totally misunderstood the message. You readily admit that an instrument is played. Your answer to Trevor's question(do you play or sing an instrument?) was that you would play an instrument if you could. Do you not see what your answer is: that you would PLAY an instrument and not SING an instrument. By answering in such a manner you admitted that an instrument is played. My statement was not that YOU specifically could play an instrument, but that in general instruments are played and not sung. You say that I "manufacture" a point of view, I'm sorry that you are confused, but I did not "maufacture" GOD'S WORD! I am simply doing what you asked and letting the scripture do the talking. You seem to be able to swiftly grasp at what seems to be a deviation that someone has made and focus completely on it, but you fail to see that there is no basis for your "ideas" of the scriptures and you never point out that you avoid and redirect most of the questions and comments that Trevor or I make. Can a fact have more that one conclusion? If I tell you that my car is red, can it be blue? no. (Please don't take this example as a literal statement, just look at the principle of the matter.) Therefore A SET OF FACTS ONLY HAS ONE POSSIBLE ANSWER. I hope that you are searching for the truth because I stand on the solid rock of righteousness and it seems that you are standing on a foundation of sand that continually crumbles under pressure. Again, your "idea" of "the best answer for what I believe is what I have to work for" is biblically incorrect, for God says that (Pro 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.) How can you not see that you consistently deviate from topic? What does your inquiry to your classmates have to do with anything that we are talking about?! Though it is off topic, I have an answer for your question: "If we were to go back three hundred years, before the time of Alexander Campbell" what would 'The Church' be called?" I submit the following: Eph 4:4 tells us that there is only one "body" in connection with Col 1:18 that "body" is also "the church". Keep this in mind Patrick. If we go back over three hundred years, lets say to 30 a.d., before Mr.Campbell's time, THE CHURCH was called the same thing as it is now: CHRIST'S CHURCH. If you think this is wrong you had better study it out in GOD'S WORD and not YOUR MIND. The apostle Paul writes clearly Rom 16:16 "..The CHURCHES OF CHRIST greet you..". Go and study this after you get back on track to the main discussion: ARE INSTRUMENTS COMMANDED BY GOD, OR BY MAN? Now you have something to think about: Why don't you support your comments with GOD'S WORD and not YOUR MIND. WHY? enough SAID.
Trevor, I am glad you looked the reference and now you have something to think about. I agree that Hugo McCord came to a different conclusion, but that is not what I was showing. First, it was stated by someone else that there was no evidence for such an idea, and a person name was cited as a Greek scholar who had not find any such reference. Second, given a set of facts does not mean that there is only one possible answer. That is, I hope what we are doing, searching for the truth. but not out of need to be right or wrong. I believe that the best answer for what I believe is what I have to work for, for if I just repeat what I hear, it is not mine. For instance, one question that I like to ask my class to get them to think is "If we were to go back three hundred years, before the time of Alexander Campbell" what would 'The Church' be called.
Say What? I said "I would play an instrument if I could play at all which I can not." You said "Patrick, You readily admit that you PLAY an instrument and not SING, so I ask you to read this passage and see that "playing" can not be applied:" You have returned to manufacturing a point of view. Sorry. Once manufactured this point you go on to prove something that is not stated. WHY? Enough SAID.
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New service
•Who: Quail Springs Church of Christ.
•What: Worship service that includes musical instruments.
•When: 9 a.m. Sunday. Traditional a cappella service at 11 a.m.
•Where: 14401 N May.
•Information: 755-4790.
What do you think?
Quail Springs Church of Christ decided to break with Church of Christ tradition and offer a service featuring instrumental music. Do you believe the use of musical instruments during worship service should be prohibited? Do you believe this is prohibited by the Bible? Let us know. Send your comments to Carla Hinton, P.O. Box 25125, Oklahoma City, OK 73125; or e-mail chinton@oklahoman.com.
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Should music be allowed in church? 02/06/2008 Mark Henderson, teaching and preaching minister at Quail Springs Church of Christ, recently shared information about the church's plans to add a worship...
Instrument use strikes discord in area church 02/07/2008 A local Church of Christ's decision to add musical instruments to its worship service has struck a wrong note with other church members. "I do not believe...
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Following the logic of Eph 5:19 we can conclude that "yourselves" does not mean "meditate". We must not overlook the fact that we are given the same admonishion in Col 3:16. In Col 3:16 it clearly and simply instructs us to teach and admonish "one another" and not "meditate to yourselves". The word "yourselves" equals "one another". So the priciple stands: As we gather togher we are to speak to one another with words that teach and admonish each other in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs and with grace in our hearts unto God. Now the last part of Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 would be more logical as to being meditation, but not the first. The Bible is clear.
2) good will, loving-kindness, favour 2a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
3) what is due to grace 3a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
3b) the token or proof of grace, benefit
3b1) a gift of grace 3b2) benefit, bounty
4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward). Now which of those is fitting to sing with grace? When did I add a tradition of man? I read Teach and Admonish as it relates to God's Word for any of the following: Doctrine, Correction, Reproof, and Instruction In Righteousness as can be found in 2Tim 3:16 (All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:).
Mar 7:3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. Mar 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
Mar 7:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. Mar 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: Mar 7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. Mar 7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. Mar 7:14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: Mar 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. Mar 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. Mar 7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable. Mar 7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.) Patrick you are doing the same thing as the pharisees: When the Doctrine of God is preached you by your own mind and traditions try to make it say something that it does not. You blindly follow the traditions of man and worship God in vain. Lip service is not something that Jesus will accept on Judgement Day, that is why we need to keep His Commandments and His Law. Yes Patrick we do claim Law and Commands: The Law and Commands of the New Testament and if that is too conservitive for you thats too bad. You claim it's liberal to stick to God's Word but don't realize that being liberal with God's Word will only bring upon yourself greater condemnation :Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.) It is obvious that you dispise truth and that you are not a doer of God's Law and that you are contentious to those who preach God's Word and are prideful and unwilling to obey righteousness and the truth. You claim that you did not agree that instruments are required but you insistantly wrestle against the scriptures to your own destruction like the people Peter wrote about in 2Pe 3:16 (As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.) By doing this you have advocated and made it clear that what is in your heart is different from God's Word. You choose rather than obeying God to obey your heart: a place that Christ says evil things come from (Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.) and God says is foolish to follow (Pro 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.) You continually advocate your mind and not God's Word. Just like these people (Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.) you are trying to change God's Word into something liberal, vile, and different form what is written. If you are a member of the Lord's Church you need to be converted before you continue to claim Christianity because by your own words you have shown yourself to be of the ranks of the world for your desire to obey mans doctrines, your pride, and your self-seeking (1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.). Patrick, We stand on a solid rock of truth an you continually try to contend with God's Wisdom, so remember this Patrick: (Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?) You can't run from or defeat God's Word with Your Mind, for nothing will stand in comparison to God's Glory.