Cougan,
Excellent job contending for the faith (Jude 3), proving all things and holding fast that which is good (1 Thess 5:21) and being ready to give an answer always (1 Pet 3:15). I would like to invite you to check out some of the discussion going on in the other forum between Patrick and myself. Keep teaching the truth in love (Eph 4:15), honest hearts (good ground) will receive it.

Hello Cougan, I see from what you wrote to Robert that you have made Good News and doctrine the same. They are very close but not quite the same. When a new broadcaster tells you that something has happen and tells you where and when it has happened that is news. We they tell you what they believe the impact will be on the people involved that has become commentary or doctrine. It may be quite logical and fair but it could also miss the truth because people tend to additional information or leave out all or some of the facts. When just the facts are related without bias and commentary we have news. That is the same for the Gospel. You can accept the news or you can reject the new as being from a crackpot. Once we move past it being news and we want to ask what it means, we enter the deeper waters and have to be careful that we can swim. We can become overwhelmed by all the opinions and ideas that can swirl and cause us to lose our direction. That brings us to Justification and sanctification that you have introduced. I think that you have correctly defined justification and sanctification. How you then apply them to this conversation is a problem. You have brought in the idea of sanctification. But as you correctly state “we become sanctified when we obey the Gospel…” When we gave up our ways, we will automatically become different from the world, set a part. I think you said the same thing when you said “we have separated ourselves from the world and set ourselves apart for God”. In becoming absent of “I will lead my life” we are sanctified. Does this make sense? Now the Lord can use us and perform what He needs to do in our lives. My problem is that you do no show how this works, and because of your being familiarity with the subject matter you just make the connection without bringing the reader along to see the truth. The discussion is like talking to someone who knows the answer but does not explain how he got to the solution so that no one is enlightened. Again with justification I see the same problem, the ideas are correct but are without the supporting reasons. For example, you said “because when we are sanctified we are justified”. Without the supporting reasoning for sanctification the connection to justification is empty to the reader. The reader cannot see the beauty of the plan. Let me see if I can clear up the idea. Now that we have given up our ways of doing things and we are trying to do everything that we find/understand that God wants us to do we are justified. Our heart is in the right place but we make mistakes and mess up. This is why the verse say “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and pthe blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin” 1 John 1:7. It is conditional to walking in the light (as we understand it), but in my original development we were talking about worship and an example which is found in the life of David. You wanted to make this discussion broader with all these other ideas which have only made the discussion more complicated. It still has not removed my original example of God choosing David to be the leader of Israel while David worship with an instrument and God saying that He was a man after God’ own heart.

Cougan, thank you for your comments. I guess I tried to simplify too much. I did not want to get too lost in all the different ideas and center on what is important to the discussion. So here goes. Since faith is so fundamental, I assumed it to be a given. It is my mistake. This whole discussion does not make any sense without believing that there is a God, He sent us his Son and that His Son gave his life for us. Otherwise the idea of why I am compelled to love does not make sense. I also tend to use a 50,000 foot view in order to see the overall plan and try to tie the pieces together. I alluded to the concept of being a faithful follower, but did not go there first because I felt like it was getting the cart before the horse. I wanted to show the connection of love being the stake in the ground and from that starting point all other ideas are measured. If my obedience is driven by duty, fear, reward or so many other conflicting ideas, the central theme of Love is lost in all of the other “important” ideas. When I realize what has been done for me and who has done it, even though I did not deserve it, I am humbled and awe struck. To paraphrase David, who am I that you would even consider me, let alone love me and save me? After considering all this, we will be in a position to begin to discuss the idea of duty because it is framed in what He has done for me. Faith is implicit. If you do not believe that He did anything, then there can be no awe and wonder. It would be just another story. How sad it would be to worship by way of law and fear instead of being able to offer love and praise to our Maker with all of our hearts.
I hope that explains the approach and motivation. When a person has a mindset framed in love, they will be ready to do anything that they find the scripture telling them to do. To teach the commandments first is to miss the whole point. Let me see if I can explain this idea. When I was raising my children, there was a time that I had to give them rule and regulation to save them from themselves. For example, a two year old do not understand about roadway and cars but does understand if mom or dad say “no” because they have see it before and in this new context (the roadway) they will stop what they are doing. We can consider that the world is like a little child, but that is demeaning and makes us look like a bully because of our approach to commandments and truth. The ideas are good, but too soon for a people that can think and reason. We have to introduce them to our Savior and friend. They must be given the time to be able to see that we have a relationship that is real and genuine. Then the world can “come and see that the Lord is Good” and we will have done our job. During the time I worked in our bus ministry, I have seen the Lord shine into the lives of children who had never been in church. We have too many churches which are based on rules and commands without the heart of our Lord and Savior being involved. We can see evidence of the Law’s effect with fear based worship with burnout, enduring our walk, and the lack of joy on the faces of the believers. What does freedom in Christ mean in this environment?
As you can see, I have not been able to address the original reason for this blog which is worship to God and how can we do that worship.
May the Lord bless you and keep you and give you peace.

Robert I appreciate you taking the time to respond. There sure a lot of people that think they used to be like me when in actuality, they cannot really make that claim. You seem to be very confused Robert. You say don’t mix Gospel for doctrine, but the Gospel is doctrine. Jesus said, “John 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 "If anyone wants to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.” Doctrine means teaching and the Gospel, which is the good news of Jesus is teaching. One has to obey good news/doctrine to be saved from sin (Rom. 6:17). So, its impossible to separate doctrine from the Gospel because they are one in the same. Also justification and sanctification go hand and hand. While sanctification is used in many ways it can be defined as (Vine says it "is used of (a) separation to God; (b) the course of life befitting those so separated." Thayer says it means to "render or declare sacred or holy, consecrate ... to separate from things profane and dedicate to God."). For the discussion here I will break sanctification in two parts. First of all sanctification was made possible through the blood of Jesus (Heb. 10:10) and we become sanctified when we obey the Gospel, which includes being baptized into Christ for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Cor. 6:11; Eph. 5:12). Once we have obeyed the Gospel call, we have separated ourselves from the world and set ourselves apart for God. Notice you soul is not purified until you obey the truth (1 Pet. 1:22) because it the truth that sanctifies (Jn. 17:17). The second part of sanctification has to do with keeping yourself set apart for God. We have to remain faithful to God until the day we die (Rev. 2:14). Again, sanctification and justification go hand and hand because when we are sanctified we are justified. Now this does not mean that we are going to be perfect in walk as Christians because none of are or will be. But God wants us to do our best and get up when we fall down. He wants us to continue to run the race of Christianity is such a way to obtain a imperishable crown (1 Cor. 9:25-27) and He wants us to fight the good fight of faith (2 Tim. 4:7 ff) being fully armed with the Word of God (Eph. 6:10ff). I agree with you that we are a work in progress and that our growth is based upon our love for God. If we don’t love Him, we are not going to obey His commandments. You seem to think that I have check list out of things that I have to do, but I do not. Instead, my motivation is out of love for God and I want to keep His commands because I know that makes Him happy just as the Father was happy with Jesus as He kept every command perfectly. If you want to follow in the foot steps of Jesus, this should be your motivation and your goal. One last point, you need to understand that when the Bible says we are not under Law its talking about the Law of Moses because we are Christ’s law (1 Cor. 9:21). If we are not under a law then it would be impossible for us to sin because sin is a transgression of the law. Some of the Jews and Gentiles in the first century were trying to go back to law of Moses, but Paul tells us to do this would be to fall from Grace (Gal. 5:4). This is why the N.T. is our authority and we must go by it.

Cougan listen to Patrick...he's trying to help you.
You're doing the same thing I used to do, try not to mix Gospel for doctrine, justication for sanctification. One is an event and the other is a process in the life of a believer.

By the preaching of the Good News or Gospel a man is brought to faith (belief & trust in Christ as the Messiah) and that makes him justified or righteous in the sight of God.

Now from that point on he is a work in progress…learning to be closer to the likeness of Christ with each thing he may gleam from the apostle’s doctrine…this is sanctification…you and I neither one will reach that total likeness but the hope is that we are constantly heading in that direction…which we will if we love God.

That Love will cause us to do things that law never could.

You are really dedicated to God and His Word…that is event…just go back and look at those scriptures again with this in mind and I think you’ll see it.

For instance look at your Luke 17:10 Verse with this in mind.

Thanks for your response Patrick. I can understand what you are saying, but I think you misunderstand the Scriptures. Did you even look at my previous posts and all the Scriptures that gave? I believe without a doubt that we are saved by grace, but we are not saved by grace alone and you cannot produce a single verse that makes that statement. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, This verse alone shows that more than grace is needed. Grace is God’s part and obedient faith is our part. We accept God’s grace by having an obedient faith as Paul said, Romans 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith. To say that we are obeyed by grace alone rules out all the other things that God’s Word says saves us, Faith (Jn. 3:16) confessing Jesus as Lord (Rom. 10:9-10) The Word (James 1:21) repentance (Lk. 13:3) baptism (1 Pet. 3:21). Salvation is offered to those who obey (Heb. 5:8-9) and those who do not obey will perish (2 Thes. 1:8f). Following these commands are not reducing God to anything, instead it shows our love for Him (Jn. 14:15; 15:14; 1 Jn. 5:3).
Please note that the Pharisees did not receive the condemnation for following the Law of Moses because Jesus said that the people should listen to what the say, but don’t do as the do because they were not keeping the Law (Mat. 23). The condemnation came from not keeping the law and for putting their traditions above the law (Mat. 15). You have a choice you can either serve God or serve man. It funny that you say that you shouldn’t view your service to God as a duty because that exactly what Jesus says it is Luke 17:10 0 "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.' " Jesus said, John 4:24-25 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." We are to worship Him in spirit that is from the heart and that worship is to be regulated by the truth, which is God’s Word (Jn. 17:17). Patrick I urge you to study out what I have said and pray to God for understanding.

Hello Cougan. A law is used to create a ruler by which a person can know where they stand relative to some truth or idea. David was not seeking Justification under the Law when he worshiped God he just wanted to express his heart. Therefore, just as Abraham was not trying to find justification under a Law (it did not exist). I have not required or implied that worship is a form of justification. It is an expression of the heart. This is why I bring up David. Even if he was a youth, it is not the subject of the discussion. I was pointing to the idea of what God is pleased with. I wish to please God, therefore I look for examples of what that is and how can I perform the same. I do not desire to have the law of sin and death but the law of liberty.
I believe the idea that I can do nothing that will purchase my salvation except give up my ways. Once I do that, I become as a little child without knowledge of which way to go. I then am ready to rely on the Bible to show the correct way. Many in Jesus' day believe they were correct and were very willing to judge where everyone else was in relation to their walk with the Lord. It was the Leader of the Jews who desired justification through works which is why they defined every little step and method for their Justification. This is why Jesus called them tombs filled with dead men bones. Using their rules, you could reduce God to a formula, do this and you will be like me (a good Jew). The heart is left out. Again this is why I went to an example that God defined as a person after his own heart. That is what I want. Not Law, but relation. Authority implies rules/justification but that is in contrast with the gift of God which is given because of love for us without becoming righteous first. This view point will draw together. Authority/rules/regulation creates division and this is a fine point. I follow Christ out of love not duty. Duty implies I do not have a choice. I cannot realize my duty without first seeing the love and responding to that love which creates the duty to the love not the Law. If I have not love I am nothing. But I could have authority/law/regulation to create a system of living but it has no God life. If I have a difference of opinion with someone about what a scripture teaches, I believe it is still in God’ hands. I can show you how I came to my opinion. I believe God gives understanding according to our ability to accept it. I am still saved only by grace. Have a Blessed day.

Welcome to the discussion Patrick. Did you read any of my previous posts especial the one where I showed the clear distinction between the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ? If you will it will answer most of your questions. You will notice when it says that David was man after God’s on heart it said early on in his life, but even later when he sinned over and over again he was willing to admit that he sinned and he would repent. David’s worship was acceptable to God and the instrument was authorized under the Law of Moses. While it is true that God doesn’t change, His covenants do. When he made a new covenant with Noah and his family, he promised he would not flood the earth again. When Jesus brought in the new covenant, He made salvation available for both Jew and Gentile and he changed the way that we worship. He got rid of temple worship, priesthoods, animal sacrifices, etc.. Even though the covenant had changed God is has not, He is still all powerful and He loves for us has not changed. While we can learn a lot about God and how he deals with His people (Rom. 15:4) our authority must come from the new covenant. The OT was the shadow and it was used to bring us to Christ. “Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.” Notice the law brought us to Christ and we are no longer under a tutor, which means we are no longer under the old law. At first the church was meeting in the temple Acts 2:46, but due to persecution those in Jerusalem did start worshipping in their homes. But one thing that is important to remember is that the people are the church and not the building. The place that you meet is simply a designated place, this is why it doesn’t matter if you meet in a home or a building. Even the apostle Paul taught and apparently worshipped in the school Tyrannus for 2 years (Acts 19:9). It also possible that the church continued to meet by the water where Lydia first heard the good news (Acts 16).
Now you say that they were afraid to play the instrument so they didn’t use one, yet we see the boldness of the Christians throughout the book of Acts. They preached in the Synagogues, temples and house to house. Paul preached for 2 years at the school of Tyrannus (Acts 19:9). These disciples took Jesus’ words to heart, “Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” This is why when the Jewish leaders threatened Peter and John they said, “Acts 4:19 "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. 20 "For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard." So to say their persecution kept them from praising God with instruments as command under the O.T. (2 Chr. 29:25) is to say that they feared man more than God. The reason they didn’t use the instrument is because they were not authorized and many of the congregations that lived in areas without heavy oppression could have used the instrument and when laws were passed that protected the Christians nothing hindered them from worshipping with instruments yet they did not. In fact they did not for over 600 years. Your movie reference is irrelevant to this discussion. If they choose not to sing then they feared man more than God. There were Christians that were burned and fed to lions because they would not waver on their faith to God.
Eph. 5:19 and Col 3:16 are not teaching us 3 different forms of worship its teaching us what kind of songs we are to sing. We are to sing in the church with "psalms" (as those of the psalmist David), "hymns" (songs of praise to God), and "spiritual songs" (or songs of praise to our Heavenly Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). These spiritual songs express our spiritual emotions to God. The only accompaniment mentioned in the New Testament is the heart, as we sing and make melody unto the Lord. As far as the 4 part harmony you don’t have to sing it that way. Personally, I sing the lead part most of the time because I don’t know how to sing some of the parts, but we all sing together. It doesn’t make your singing to God any less or more if you are singing alto or bass. Again, only singing is occurring. When you sing by yourself it’s obvious that you are only going to sing one part. I hope this helps.

Thank for your response Dave. I noticed that you didn’t answer my questions even though I answered yours. I will give you 2 Scriptures that forbid the use of musical instruments. Eph. 5:19 Col. 3:16. The Word of God either means what is says or it doesn’t. These verses only authorize singing and name the instrument as being the heart. When God’s Word says something it excludes everything else. The N.T. doesn’t say don’t do a lot of things. The Bible doesn’t say that you can’t specifically smoke pot or snort cocaine, so according to your logic it would acceptable to do so. Let me ask you another question. Do you think it was be ok to substitute the unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine with hamburgers or lemonade? If you stick your logic you would have to that is ok because the Bible doesn’t say that you can’t do that, it only says to use fruit of the vine and unleavened bread. Will you hold true to your logic or will admit that God means what He says.
I am not for sure why you made your comment about the Pharisees because I already pointed out that they were condemned by Jesus for not keeping the Law and putting their traditions above the Law (Mat. 15 and 23).
I am not being hypocritical in quoting what these denomination preachers have said in the past. It used their quotes to show that during the restoration movement to get back to the Bible that even denomination preachers realized the truth about musical instruments. Just because I quote a denomination preacher doesn’t mean that I agree with their entire doctrine, but I can agree with them when they speak the truth on a Biblical matter. There is no hypocrisy in doing that. You said you once proclaimed the truth on this matter, I urge you to return back to Bible. If you have any additional questions for me, please ask them and I will do my best to answer them and back them up with book, chapter and verse.

Since Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, Heb 13:8. And God with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning, James 1:17. And since David was a man after God own heart (God own words), 1 Sam 13:14, Act 13:22. David worshiped God with instrument(s), (To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David, Ps 14:1). Can we infer that David’s worship was pleasing and acceptable to God? Who has changed from OT to NT? The idea of worship with or without instruments is tempered by the condition of the early church. First point, they met in homes. Second and more important point, since they were under a constant threat of discovery and punishment/or death, would they want to make a lot of noise. Would they sing quietly and in a subdued voice? Would they use trumpets and clinging cymbals (Psalm 150). Or as a movie I saw called “China Cry” using lip syncing and hand waving without saying a word. You judge. What makes sense in this environment? Ephesians 5:18-20, present a problem that must be answered. Why three different forms of worship. Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual songs needs to be answered honestly and without bias. As I consider four part harmony, I believe that it is a weaker for of worship. It requires at least four people to fully worship the Lord. I myself prefer to sing the melody and forget the parts. Then I am able to worship myself without the need of others! Does this make sense? What do you hum to yourself when you are alone, a part or the melody? What will you sing when you are along with your God? See the idea? This is question that I ask myself.

Cougan, I don't believe Christ intended it as a compliment when he called the Pharisees "white washed tombs". You are claiming musical instruments as a matter of law, when it is not. It is not mentioned in the NT because it is a non-issue. WHERE IS THE MAGICAL SWITCH BETWEEN OT AND NT REGARDING INSTRUMENTS??? No one has been able to provide this. There were several things that were done in the OT AND in the NT. People's traditions didn't change. What they did for jobs didn't change. You like to pick and choose what is tradition and what is law. That is not your right. No one has the right to speak on God's behalf and put words into His mouth. If the lack of instruments in worship is so wrong, why isn't it mentioned in the Bible? If instrumental worship is a salvation issue (as some of you claim), why didn't God mention it? Something that important would most definitely have been mentioned, right? But it's not. You are taking the liberty to insert something into scripture that God did not put there. That is a sin. Taking scripture and twisting it around to make your point is a sin. You have yet to give just ONE scripture that clearly condemns the use of instruments in worship. All you have given are your interpretations of what single verses mean. I can also take single verses, bundle them up anyway I choose, and come up with the most ungodly points you've ever heard. But hey, I'm using scripture to back it up, right? I completely believe in God's word in its entirety and context. Also, you do realize you're being hypocritical by bringing up denominational leaders to make your point. These are people whose opinions on other issues (such as salvation) you would condemn. You're again picking and choosing whatever you believe supports your point. You either support the Bible in its entire context, or you don't. Quit grasping at straws trying to make a point that isn't there. I love you, man. But this conversation is going nowhere. I'm convinced we have God given freedom within the context of His word. You are condemning of those freedoms. I wish the best for you and your family.

One of the favorite terms that people like to use on this blog is legalist. If you use this term to indicate that we are doing out best abide in doctrine of Christ, then thank you. If we are legalist does that make you an illegalist? You also like to compare us to Pharisees because you think they were strict at Law keeping, but Jesus did not rebuke them for keeping the Law, He rebuked them for keeping the traditions of men and for not keeping the Law. In all fairness, those that attempt to go beyond the Scriptures and add manmade traditions such as mechanical instruments to their worship are the ones that should be called Pharisees not us.

Also we do not teach that a person can work their way into heaven because nothing we do can every merit our salvation, but God demands obedience (Heb. 5:8-9; 2 Thes. 1:7-9) and if we want to accept His offer of salvation then we must love Him enough to obey (Jn. 14:15). Jesus summed up the attitude that we should have as Christians as we labor for Lord in,

Luke 17:7 "And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and sit down to eat'? 8 "But will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink'? 9 "Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. 10 "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.'

Dear Dave,

I have not intentions of every splitting a church, but if a church is divided because the truth was taught it would be the truth and not the person that caused the split. If you split a congregation based on your opinion instead of Scripture, then you did sin, but if you have repented and asked God for forgiveness that sin is gone. You said you looked at my website. Did you take a look at the sermons I preach because they are all there in manuscript form and you will see that I teach the whole counsel of God. I teach on God’s love, grace and mercy. I also preach from the O.T. to show the love of God and the mercy and grace He showed to the children of Israel. The ad that is being discussed is about the use of musical instruments being added when the new covenant doesn’t authorize it. It shows how the Quail Springs church has broken the commandment of God. When we willfully sin and break God’s command and choose not repent, we are separated from God. But, as soon as Mark and the elders choose to uphold God’s truth and remove the instrument from their worship God will forgive them and they will be covered by the Grace of God.

It always amazes me how there is always people who say they were just like me when they don’t know me. I think the reason you are not given any Scriptures is because none can be found in the N.T. that justify the use of musical instruments. You claim the Bible is our authority but since people will take the Scriptures you give out context you won’t give any. So, instead we should just tell each other what we think instead of allowing God’s Word to be our guide.

The use of musical instruments was a command in the O.T. 2 Chr. 29:25 but they are not commanded in the N.T. David was under Moses Law and what he did was according the Law of Moses, which mean those Laws don’t apply to us. By your own words we are not bound by the Old Law, so how can you say its acceptable to use musical instruments in worship when they are not authorized by example or command under the New Law of the N.T.? Yes we do have freedom in Christ, which is the freedom from the power of sin, not the freedom to do whatever we want to.

We are not bond to the traditions of men, but we are bound by the traditions/doctrine of the NT. (2 Thes. 2:15; 3:6). I am not trying to win an argument by quoting a bunch of Scriptures, I am sharing with you what I believe to be the truth because I want you to be pleasing to God.

Can you explain why they instrument was not used for over 600 years starting in the 1st century? Can you explain why there are no examples or commands for their use under the N.T.? Can you explain why all the denominational preachers I listed in my tract understood that using the instruments was wrong?

You seem to think this has been a lose/lose situation, but it hasn’t because there have been many people that have been discussing this issue and in many ways it will strengthen a person faith because it will cause them to study and pray more.

Carol in Tuttle, regarding your comment about being wet....Mark 16:16. Acts 2:38.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness." Matt.23:23

Cougan, I have shared your mindset before, when I was a paid minister over 10 years ago. I have fought on your side before. Because of it, I have contributed to a nasty church split and to the potential of souls being lost. I will have to answer for that one day and it terrifies me. I have repented and prayed for God's forgiveness and grace. Please don't fall into the same trap that I did. As for my scripture references, I did mention Matthew 5 (Christ came to fulfill not abolish). I could also reference I Corinthians 10 which addresses our freedom in Christ. I will not quote specific verses, because (as has been proven on this thread and in the haters' blog) verses can be taken out of context and twisted to make an argument. You continue to reference "old covenant" and "old law". I agree with you on both. However, we're not talking about something mentioned as law or covenant. We're talking about something that was mentioned numerous times in the OT (not as a law or promise), but all of a sudden isn't mentioned in the NT. That is the classic argument we've used for years and it doesn't hold any water. David, the man after God's own heart, wrote the Psalms with a harp/lyre. This was part of his worship and praise to God. There is no magical switch, regarding instrumental worship, that occurs between the OT and NT. If I'm missing that, please let me know. Cougan, based off of your church's website, you look like a young guy with a young family. Please don't teach them to grow up believing that God is waiting to zap them if they mess up. While teaching them His word, please teach them His grace and His forgiveness. Teach them His love, joy, and peace. Legalism was condemned by Christ when He called the Pharisees "white-washed tombs", because they didn't get it. Please don't take my stance as "anything goes", because it doesn't mean that. It simply acknowledges that we are not bound by the old law. We are not bound by traditions. We have freedom in Christ that must be used within the context of God's word and must be used wisely. In the instances where it has been misused, we must repent and pray for God's forgiveness and grace. Arguments aren't won by who quotes the most scripture; they're won by those who KNOW God's word and it's context. Unfortunately, this discussion has already become a lose/lose for everyone.

Thanks, for your response Dave,
I want to apologize for how my article was jumbled together. When I pasted it, I thought it would keep my spacing. I am glad that you consider the Word of God as out authority because that gives us something to work with. In my article, I gave you plenty of Scriptures to prove what I was saying, but I noticed you didn’t use any.
You said, “A NT Christian means that we have Christ as our savior and that HIS sacrifice was sufficient for all. No further sacrifices were needed.”
This is a true statement. Christ died for everyone and when He created a new covenant there was no more need for animal sacrifices.
You said, “To say that the OT is obsolete is an abomination. Christ said clearly in Matthew 5 that He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. To tie in instrumental worship to a new covenant is a VERY far stretch. I firmly believe that you will be surprised to learn one day that Christ's/God's covenant was not just made with the "churches of Christ", but with all followers and believers in Christ.”
If calling the OT obsolete is an abomination then I guess the writer of Hebrews committed an abomination when he said,
Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
The law of Moses it the old covenant that was made obsolete by the new covenant that Jesus gave us. This does not mean that the OT doesn’t have value because it does. With the OT the NT wouldn’t make much sense. However, when the covenant changed, which was predicted by Jeremiah (Jer. 31:31-32), the Law of Moses was no longer binding on the Christian.
In Matthew 5: 17 Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” In this passage Jesus tells us that He did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it. With this in mind, we can understand that in verse 18 the law will not pass away until Jesus fulfills it. Jesus wanted to make sure his disciples understood this, so after he was raised from dead, he said the following. "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me" (Luke 24:44). The point that Jesus is trying to get across to His disciples is this. Remember when I said the law would not pass away till all was fulfilled (Matt. 5:17-18)? That has now happened! This same thought is also found in Acts 13:27-29. This harmonizes perfectly with the numerous Scriptures that state that the Old Covenant was replaced with the New Covenant at the death of Jesus (Heb. 9:15; Heb. 8:6-7; Gal. 3:23-25). The handwriting of requirements of the law were nailed to the cross (Col. 2:14) and put to death in his flesh (Eph. 2:14-16). Paul tells us that the Christians before 70AD were no longer under the law (Rom. 6:15; Rom. 7:1-6; 8:1-4). Those Christians who believed in Jesus and were led by the spirit were no longer under the law (Rom. 10:4; Gal. 5:18). Finally, Paul proclaimed that if Christians tried to go back to the law for justification they would fall from grace (Gal. 5:4). Although the law was still being practiced by some of the Jews, its authority ended at the cross and the New Covenant took its place.
Now this does not mean that we are not under a Law any more because we are under the Law of Christ (Gal 6:2; Rom. 3:27; 8:2; 1 Cor. 9:21; Jam. 1:25; 2:12). Every thing I have said so far proves from the Scripture that we cannot get our authorization for the OT. If you try and bring one thing over then you are going to have to bring them all over.
As I mentioned earlier animal sacrifices should be practice, stoning mediums should be done (Lev. 20:27), stoning fornicators and those guilt of adultery (Deut. 22:23-24; Lev. 20:10), stoning rebellious children (Deut. 21:18-21). In Numbers 5: 11-31 there is interesting procedure that is to be done to determine if a wife has been unfaithful. She has to drink some bitter water given to her by a priest. If she has been unfaithful her thigh would rot and her belly would swell. Now I could name more things just like this, but the question becomes, are you going to say that these practices are still binding today? If you are going to say that we can use the Law of Moses to justify using musical instruments then you are going to have to implement these other Laws as well.
When Jesus made the new covenant it was for both Jew and Gentile and those who enter into that new covenant are Christians that belong to the one church that Jesus built and paid for with His blood (Eph. 4:4; Mat. 16:18; Acts 20:28). Paul condemns dividing the church into denominations (1 Cor. 1:10ff). When we use a name for our church it should be a Biblical one that brings honor and glory to its owner. Church of Christ is just one of those names (Rom. 16:16). A person should ask why they call themselves Baptists, Methodist, Lutherans etc.. because these names bring honor to men, actions or methods. Remember it was Christ that was crucified for you.
You said, “As I've asked others before (and haven't gotten an answer yet), by your logic, we must only chant in our worship services. Four part harmony is unacceptable because the first century church didn't do it. Church buildings are also unscriptural. First century Christians met in homes so they could move around easily due to the persecution. It's an "all or nothing" on this one, Cougan. You are not the authority, therefore you have no right to pick and choose what is authorized by God and what is not . . . unless He speaks to it. Otherwise, you're just attempting to put words in His mouth, and I'm sure He would be very insulted and unhappy about that. Be careful what you say. Remember that you will receive the same judgment you give others. Will you be merciful and full of grace, or will you be judgmental and condemning?”
Here what you don’t seem to understand. The in the N.T. there is a specific command and then there are matters of expediency. For example, the Great Commission says “Go into all the world” , but it doesn’t say how to go. So, we can go by bus, plane, radio broadcast, etc. While we are left t choose how we go, we are specifically commanded to go. So the specific command is for us to sing, which can include chanting, and singing 4 part harmonies because only singing is occurring. However, only singing can be done. To add a musical instrument would violate the command to sing. The same principle can be applied to a church building. Heb. 10:25 commands that we assembly with saints, but the location is not specified. So, if we want to assemble by a tree, rent or buy a building to meet in, we can because that doesn’t violate the command to assemble. The meeting place is just an expediency.
Another thing that will help is for me define the different between an aid and addition because some claim that an instrument is just an aid.
An aid is something used that doesn’t make a change to a command. An addition is something that is added and does change the command. For instance, when we use different dishes to transport the Lord’s Supper, these dishes are aids and do not change the Lord’s Supper. However, if we add hamburgers and lemonade to the Lord’s Supper, then an addition has occurred that has changed the command of God.

A song leader or songbooks are aids. The song leader chooses the song and starts it. The songbooks contain the words that we are singing. In both of the instances only singing is occurring, so the command to sing has not been changed. However, when we add a musical instrument that is being played, something other than singing is occurring. So, musical instruments are an addition and not an aid.

I would never claim to be the authority because God’s Word is our authority. I am not attempting to put words in God’s mouth, I am simply doing my best to show you what the Scriptures say. I am not being judgmental, but I can make a righteous judgment from the Word of God (Jn. 7:24). I have the right to say something is a sin if God’s Word calls it a sin. I take my responsibility as teacher very serious because I know that I will be judged more harshly by God (Jam. 3:1). I haven’t told you all this stuff to condemn you, but to help you get right with God. My desire is for you study your Bible and prove or disprove what I have presented.
Cougan
Preacher at the Lone Grove church of Christ

Cougan, no arguments that God and His word are our authority. However, you (or the tract you're quoting) are dead wrong. Being a NT Christian means that we have Christ as our savior and that HIS sacrifice was sufficient for all. No further sacrifices were needed. To say that the OT is obsolete is an abomination. Christ said clearly in Matthew 5 that He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. To tie in instrumental worship to a new covenant is a VERY far stretch. I firmly believe that you will be surprised to learn one day that Christ's/God's covenant was not just made with the "churches of Christ", but with all followers and believers in Christ. As I've asked others before (and haven't gotten an answer yet), by your logic, we must only chant in our worship services. Four part harmony is unacceptable because the first century church didn't do it. Church buildings are also unscriptural. First century Christians met in homes so they could move around easily due to the persecution. It's an "all or nothing" on this one, Cougan. You are not the authority, therefore you have no right to pick and choose what is authorized by God and what is not . . . unless He speaks to it. Otherwise, you're just attempting to put words in His mouth, and I'm sure He would be very insulted and unhappy about that. Be careful what you say. Remember that you will receive the same judgment you give others. Will you be merciful and full of grace, or will you be judgmental and condemning?

The following article will help explain why the church of Christ does not use musical instruments.

THE TRUTH ABOUT SINGING



In this tract I will show you what the Bible says about singing in our worship service and in our private lives. Then I will show you why the church of Christ doesn’t use musical instruments in their worship to God.



First, we need to find out what the source of our authority is for worshipping God. If we cannot agree on where our authority comes from, then we will never come to the same understanding of how we are to worship God. To help us discover what our authority is, I want you to notice what Jesus said to His disciples after His resurrection from the dead.



Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.



Since all authority was given to Jesus, this means that we must go to Him and His Word for our authority. Paul also confirms this.



Colossians 3:17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.



This clearly shows that Jesus is our authority, and we need to pay close attention to what He teaches us about worshipping God. When Jesus was in Samaria, He talked to a woman by Jacob’s well. She wanted to know where we are supposed to worship God. He answers her question and then tells her what true worship is.



John 4:24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."



If we agree that Jesus and the Word of God is our sole authority, then we must agree that these two elements are necessary to please God. First, we must worship God in spirit, which means from the heart. Second, we must worship God in truth, which means we are to worship God according to His Word because it is truth.



John 17:17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.



This is why we find many verses that command us to follow God’s Word and nothing else. This means that creed books, bylaws or any other man-made doctrines should be rejected as being our authority.

1 Corinthians 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.



2 John 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.



It doesn’t get any clearer than this. The Word of God is our sole authority that we must live by to be pleasing to God. It is also important to understand that our authority comes from the New Testament only. When Jesus died for us on the cruel cross, He brought a new covenant into place making the old covenant obsolete and no longer binding on the Christian today. Colossians 2:14 teaches us that when Jesus died on the cross, He nailed the requirements of Moses’ Law to the cross, which means He put it to death. The book of Hebrews and Galatians are good books to study that show how we are no longer under the old covenant because we are under the new covenant.



Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



Based on what I have presented so far, we can see that our worship is to be regulated only by the Word of God that is found in the New Testament. The reason this is important to understand is because some try to bring things over from the Old Testament and make them a part of our New Testament worship to God. However, you cannot do this because those laws and requirements are dead to us today (Rom. 7). Think about this. If it is acceptable to bring one thing over from that obsolete covenant, then logically you should be able to bring over everything else including animal sacrifices.



Now that I have established that our authority comes from the New Testament, we can now see how singing is a part of our worship to God. In 1 Cor. 14, Paul teaches the Corinthians how to conduct a worship service in an orderly manner. In that chapter, you learn that singing was a part of their worship to God, which shows us that singing is a part of our worship to God.



Now let’s take a look at some passages about singing and how it is to be done.

Ephesians 5:18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,



Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.



From these verses, we learn there are two different purposes for singing in our worship to God. The first purpose is singing praises to God from our hearts. This purpose can also be seen in the following verses.



Hebrews 2:12 .. "I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You."

Hebrews 13:15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.



This last verse would certainly include singing to God.



James 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms.



Surely, we can all agree that when we come together to worship God it is a cheerful time. So, we should sing praises to God as James suggested. We also have an example where singing is directed toward God outside the public worship as well.



Acts 16:25 But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them.



So whether we are in public worship or somewhere else, we can sing praises to God through song.



The second purpose we learn from Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 is that when we sing, we are teaching and admonishing one another. I like to refer to this as congregational teaching. The word “admonishing” means to warn. This is why it’s important the song leader chooses songs that edify. When we sing about God’s amazing grace or about how the judgment day is coming, these songs are how we teach and admonish one another about God’s Word. With this in mind, we should agree that the songs we sing need to be Biblical, and should not contain false doctrine. You wouldn’t want a preacher to standup and teach something false. In the same manner, we don’t want to be guilty of teaching something false when we are singing. Sometimes it is easy for us to overlook the message a song is teaching because we can sing it well, and we like the way it sounds. However, consider what Paul taught the Corinthians.



1 Corinthians 14:15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.



Paul is teaching us that we need to understand what we are teaching when we are singing. We need to ask ourselves, would I teach what this song is teaching to someone else? Now let me tell you what I am not saying. I am not saying that we should go over every song we sing with a microscope and nitpick it to death. Instead, we need to examine the overall message of the song. I have a great example of this. In the song “Night with Ebon Pinion” the overall message is about what Jesus went through as He prayed in the garden alone. However, I want you to notice what the first line of this song says.



“Night with Ebon pinion, Brooded ore the vale”



If I were gambling man, I would bet there isn’t many people who know what this means. Who or what is Ebon pinion, and what does this expression “Brooded or the vale” mean? Even though a person may not fully understand every word of this song, it would be acceptable to sing it because we understand its overall message. So, all I am saying is we need to be careful at what we sing, but don’t throw a song out just because you may not fully understand a small part of it. However, if a song is teaching something false, like you are saved by faith alone, we should not sing it no matter how good it sounds.



Another thing we need to realize with this idea of singing with understanding is how important it is to concentrate on what we are singing, and remembering that our singing is to come from our hearts. So, we should sing with emotion knowing that the words we are singing are praising our God. We also need to be careful about singing the same songs over and over again because we can get to the point to where we are just mouthing the words instead of putting our hearts into them. This is one reason I think it’s great when the song leaders teach us new songs so we have new words and new thoughts to think about as we sing.



Another important point from Eph.5:19 and Col. 3:16 is that singing is a command. Singing to God is not an option, and so each of us is to sing if we are capable. I understand sometimes we have sicknesses and those who cannot speak, but even in these instances, we can concentrate on what is being sung. These two verses also answer the question, who should sing? We can see this with clarity from the Greek because in both of these verses nearly ever word is in the plural form, which means that every single person is to sing. God doesn’t care if you can’t carry a tune; He just wants your singing to come from your heart. So, if there is nothing preventing you from singing, you need to follow this command and sing to God with everyone. Since these verses command everyone to sing, they rule out solos and choirs in the worship service.



So in our public worship, let us all sing with understanding from our hearts as we sing praises to God, and we teach and admonish one another. Now that I have established our authority for singing and what the Bible teaches about singing. Let’s examine the following question.



Why does the church of Christ not use mechanical instruments of music in their worship to God?



This is one area that most of the religious world cannot understand because they will ask over and over again, “Why in the world would you not want to have musical instruments in your worship to God?” The next time someone asks you a question like this, ask them, “why do you use them”? Most of them don’t know why they use them. They just know they like them or they might say, “Oh, it just adds so much to the worship service.” First, I want you to think about this typical answer and ask yourself the question, why are they coming to worship? Are they coming to please God and worship Him or are they coming to focus in on themselves and how they feel or what they get out of it? One of the main problems in the religious world today is that people focus in on their own desires instead of God’s desires. They don’t come to worship God, they come to please themselves. That is exactly why people are using musical instruments in their worship to God because you cannot find one scripture in the New Testament that authorizes their use by a direct command or by example.



So, the next time someone asks you this question, ask them to show you just one scripture in the New Testament that authorizes us to use a musical instrument in our worship to God. I promise you, they will not be able to find one. Another problem with the religious world today is that they blindly follow what they grew up around. As long as they have lived, their denomination has used musical instruments and to them it seems natural to use them. So, they have never questioned it. I sincerely believe if they would take an honest look at the scriptures, they would soon realize that musical instruments are an addition to God’s Word, which makes it a sin to use them in worship. The New Testament is proof enough to show that it only authorizes us to sing to Lord. However, I want to share with some external evidence that also shows that they should not be used in our worship to God. Let’s begin by looking at the history of the instrument and when it began to be used.



Countless scholars and historians agree that musical instruments were not used in the early church. In fact, the earliest mentioning of their introduction didn’t come until the 5th or 6th century. In the Catholic Church, Pope Vitalian sanctioned their use for the first time in A.D. 670. This caused controversy because notice what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about this.



“…The first Christians were of too spiritual fiber to substitute lifeless instruments for or to use them to accompany the human voice”.



“The rejection of all musical instruments from Christian worship is consistent among the fathers” (New Catholic Encyclopedia 10:106)



The idea of using musical instruments didn’t catch on fast at all. It always caused great controversy and division wherever it was introduced. It wasn’t until 1851 and beyond that people started embracing the use of musical instruments in their worship to God. I want to share with you several quotes from denominational preachers from the past.



John Calvin founder of the Presbyterian Church: “Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of lamps or the restoration of the other shadows of the law.”(Commentary on the Book of Psalms, Vol, I, p. 539)



John Wesley founder of the Methodist Church: “I have no objection to instruments of music, in our chapels provided they are neither heard nor seen,”



Adam Clark famous Methodist commentator: “Music as a science, I esteem and admire: but instruments of music in the house of God I abominate and abhor.”



Martin Luther founder of the Lutheran Church: “Martin Luther called the organ and ‘ensign of Baal’.” Mcclintock & Strong’s Encyclopedia.



Charles H. Spurgeon a well-known Baptist preacher: “I would as soon attempt to pray to God with machinery as to sing to him with machinery.”



J.H. Garrison of the Christian Church: “There is no command in the NT, Greek or English commanding the use of the instrument.



At one time, all these different denominations represented here understood the use of musical instruments were not to be used in our worship to God. Yet sadly, every single one of these denominations use musical instruments in their worship services today. This is a movement that has begun to affect the church of Christ as well. We have seen Max Lucado and his congregation turn their backs on the Word of God and embrace the use of musical instruments in their worship services and it’s not just them. Recently, the Richland Hills church of Christ in Dallas has started a worship service on Saturday where they use musical instruments and partake of the Lord’s Supper on that day. This shows us that the Lord’s church is starting to follow the same pattern as the denominations. If we don’t standup for the truth and uphold God’s way, it’s going to be difficult to find a congregation in the future that is not using musical instruments.



In conclusion, I have shown you that our sole authority comes from the New Testament and we must worship God in sprit and in truth. The New Testament teaches us that we are to sing and it names the instrument as our heart. We have seen that history confirms that we are not authorized to use musical instruments in our worship to God. Now it is up to you to decide whom you will serve, God or humans.

Cougan
Lone Grove church of Christ

Gary, PLEASE don't think that all church of Christers are this judgmental. We are not. Most are very loving, accepting, and tolerant of each other and their differences. You basically have a very small group of people who are boldly claiming that they represent ALL "faithful" churches of Christ. I can assure you that they do not. This has been one of the most damaging things to come out of last week's ad and Carla Hinton's articles. The perception that we're all judgmental hate-mongers just isn't true. That has been the worst part of all of this. Please don't lump us all into one basket.

Don, I agree with Tim totally...
Love your heart for the Lord.

I only have one comment to make. I am very saddened and heavy at heart to hear the attitude and hate and anger that seathes like poison from some of these postings. Before you type your next post, do me a favor, take a few minutes to talk to God in prayer. That's all.

Wonderfully written Don. Isn't it wonderful to feel the Holy Spirit alive in you? Truly Spirit led. Thanks.

I am a lifelong member of the church of Christ. I've attended and been a member of churches in OK, TX, and AR. I watch Mack Lyon as a part of my Sunday morning preparation for worship. I am a subscriber to The Christian Chronicle. I believe your faith and the manner in which you conduct your life, spiritually and otherwise, is between you and God. The Bible is a collection of books about history, faith, love, compassion, forgiveness, grace, mercy, and hope. I don't think it was intended to be used by man as a tool to undermine another man's legitimate attempt to honor our Creator or our Lord and Savior. Every belief, be it Protestant, Catholic, Jew, or otherwise is Pharisaical in it's approach to keep the sheep in line. How easy it is to criticize, belittle and condemn others. To not do so requires we relinquish our need for personal power and authority. EVERY church and belief is guilty of this. Does that mean we are all doomed to hell? Before you have an anuerism attempting a rebuttal, consider Luke 12:10: And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the person who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

THE ONLY SIN THAT WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN IS BLASPHEME AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT. God knows our hearts and minds - all of us. Personally, I am not comfortable with instruments used during the service. It's the way I was raised. Are instruments used during the singing of praises blasphemous? I cannot be convinced God will doom anyone for using a piano during worship to give glory to him and sing his praises. We know we have the mind of God in the written Word. That doesn't mean we understand it correctly. I personally choose to attend a church that does not use instruments. We are guilty of making judgements against one another we have ZERO authority to make. NONE of us stand taller than another. Humility in ALL things, remember? Each individual needs to reflect on their PERSONAL relationship with God and Christ. Think it through carefully. Consider Mark 7:6: He said to them, “Isaiah prophesied correctly about you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7:7 They worship me in vain, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.’ 7:8 Having no regard for the command of God, you hold fast to human tradition.” There is no COMMAND against instrumental music. To claim otherwise is simply taking the written Word out of context. Digest that and then consider Mark 8:15: And Jesus ordered them, “Watch out! Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Saducees!”

Indeed, watch out for the infectious suspicion, anger, fear and hatred practiced by a few legalistic and self rightious attendees way too eager to point a finger. Worship from your heart is what God desires, not what any man tells you you have to do.

I have to question the hearts of those behind the ad and articles against Quail Springs. Let's practice the same INCLUSIVENESS, LOVE, and FORGIVENESS God shows each of us on a daily basis.