I don't see bulls humping bulls or cows licking cows! So I guess in that regard maybe the animal kingdom has one up on man!

If you look into Massachusetts history, the legislators are the ones who UPHELD gay marriage, not try to take it away. Further, if you equate your logic as to why people get married, then I guess heterosexual couples who do not want to have children can't get married; or heterosexual couples who can not conceive should get married. Since when did marriage vows include the words, I take you only if you can conceive my child? With all of the children in the world who are adopted, you are sure sending a message to them that their not as loved as ones who are born to them. As for biological children, we (homosexual couples) have biological children. It's called artificial insemination and surrogate mothers. I would sure hate for you to come back with that one and say that it's not both of your children when heterosexual couples use this means of being able to conceive children! Further, to say we should just be happy with Civil Unions is obsurd! Would you be happy with it? Of course not. It's just like telling the blacks, you should be happy riding a bus in general...forget being able to sit where ever you want to sit! They fought for their freedom, the same way we're fighting for ours. Additionally, maybe you should look into gay couples who have divorced because you will know the answer to your divorce/custody question. Yes, courts have held that homosexual couples do split things 50/50 and yes, visitation is granted just like any heterosexual couple who divorces. So as you can see, we are not any different than you. We are fun, loving people who diserve the same benefit. If you look at the first edition of the bible, there was no comment towards homosexuality. It wasn't until MAN added to the bible. What does that tell you? Again, who are you to judge? The bible does and has always stated, God will be the only one to judge. Maybe you should think twice before judging others before you have to meet your maker at the gates of heaven and be judged yourself!

Tanya and Sharon.. are you legally married in Oklahoma/.. or does Oklahoma recognize your marriage? How many states have refused to recognize gay marriages and how many times has the MA legislature attempted to revoke the legality of their marriages? What is the purpose of marriage? Some that have been living together get married for tax purposes, some to add legitamacy to their offspring, etc.. do they pass the test for what the purpose of being married is ? I civil union is the same as a marriage in it's major aspect, and that being they are both CONTRACTS. And when or if you change your mind and get a divorce, do you split everything 50/50? And if you are raising a child, does the biological mother get the child and the other visitation?... You see, it isn't about equal rights is it? If one of you dies in a state that doesn't recognize your "marriage" then what will you do? Hope that the federal government has given you a special right? The benefits of a gay marriage seem so miniscule compared to the problems it must just be a principle thing. It seems to me that if it were a "natural" condition, why don't we all look the same, either like a man or a woman or some combination of the two. But, we don't. Women look like women and men look like men. Doesn't that screem for justification that there must be a reason? Men were made for women and vice-versa.

Nah you see you don't get off that easy! Whether you're a lap licker or a fudge packer, it's just wrong!

Let's hope Sally will get around to responding to her e-mails. Perhaps the next time she feels the need discriminate against any segment of American society, she will remember the public outrage that she deserves.

The fact that the elected officials of the state of Oklahoma will not censure or impeach Sally Kern send a clear message to the rest of the nation. That message is LGBT Americans are not welcome or safe in Oklahoma. I for one WILL NEVER buy any products or services that are produced or distributed through the entire state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_agenda This is a good read for both sides of this issue.

Preston, maybe you should go back and listen to her speech again. I have listened to it many times. Only in one section of her speech does she talk about lobbyist's. The rest of her speech is nothing but hate. Maybe if someone gave a hate speech about your life you would see the difference between hate and kind words. Also, apparently you have a different GOD than I do since my GOD loves everyone! Isn't there a children's christian song that says red and yellow black and white we are precious in his site? I don't think it goes...."Jesus loves some little children,
That he's destined to know Him in this world,
Red and yellow, back and white,
Some few are precious in his sight,
All others He has doomed for endless hell." Maybe you will enjoy this letter to Rep. Kern that was written by an 18 year old high school kid who lost his mother in the Murrah bombing....Rep Kern:

On April 19, 1995, in Oklahoma City a terrorist detonated a bomb that killed my mother and 167 others. 19 children died that day. Had I not had the chicken pox that day, the body count would've likely have included one more. Over 800 other Oklahomans were injured that day and many of those still suffer through their permanent wounds.

That terrorist was neither a homosexual or was he involved in Islam. He was an extremist Christian forcing his views through a body count. He held his beliefs and made those who didn't live up to them pay with their lives.

As you were not a resident of Oklahoma on that day, it could be explained why you so carelessly chose words saying that the homosexual agenda is worst than terrorism. I can most certainly tell you through my own experience that is not true. I am sure there are many people in your voting district that laid a loved one to death after the terrorist attack on Oklahoma City. I kind of doubt you'll find one of them that will agree with you.
I was five years old when my mother died. I remember what a beautiful, wise, and remarkable woman she was. I miss her. Your harsh words and misguided beliefs brought me to tears, because you told me that my mother's killer was a better person than a group of people that are seeking safety and tolerance for themselves.

As someone left motherless and victimized by terrorists, I say to you very clearly you are absolutely wrong.

You represent a district in Oklahoma City and you very coldly express a lack of love, sympathy or understanding for what they've been through. Can I ask if you might have chosen wiser words were you a real Oklahoman that was here to share the suffering with Oklahoma City? Might your heart be a bit less cold had you been around to see the small bodies of children being pulled out of rubble and carried away by weeping firemen?
I've spent 12 years in Oklahoma public schools and never once have I had anyone try to force a gay agenda on me. I have seen, however, many gay students beat up and there's never a day in school that has went by when I haven't heard the word **** slung at someone. I've been called gay slurs many times and they hurt and I am not even gay so I can just imagine how a real gay person feels. You were a school teacher and you have seen those things too. How could you care so little about the suffering of some of your students?

Let me tell you the result of your words in my school. Every openly gay and suspected gay in the school were having to walk together Monday for protection. They looked scared. They've already experienced enough hate and now your words gave other students even more motivation to sneer at them and call them names. Afterall, you are a teacher and a lawmaker, many young people have taken your words to heart. That happens when you assume a role of responsibility in your community. I seriously think before this week ends that some kids here will be going home bruised and bloody because of what you said.
I wish you could've met my mom. Maybe she could've guided you in how a real Christian should be acting and speaking.

I have not had a mother for nearly 13 years now and wonder if there were fewer people like you around, people with more love and tolerance in their hearts instead of strife, if my mom would be here to watch me graduate from high school this spring. Now she won't be there. So I'll be packing my things and leaving Oklahoma to go to college elsewhere and one day be a writer and I have no intentions to ever return here. I have no doubt that people like you will incite crazy people to build more bombs and kill more people again. I don't want to be here for that. I just can't go through that again.

You may just see me as a kid, but let me try to teach you something. The old saying is sticks and stones will break your bones, but words will never hurt you. Well, your words hurt me. Your words disrespected the memory of my mom. Your words can cause others to pick up sticks and stones and hurt others.


Sincerely

Tucker

todd - LOL Evidently I don't need to talk about the liberal slant of the media. You've already got that one figured out. Hey you all, the weekend is nigh. I'm heading up to my Dad's house tonight in Oklahoma. So I'll get to hear what some of the Okies up there think about things this weekend. You all have a good one. I've enjoyed it. Thanks for coming back and giving me your input on some things. It always helps to know both sides of an argument, and I think you all represented your's quite well.

Chris - it is quite evident by what everyone is saying that they haven't even taken the time to listen to her comments, or put them in the proper context of a political setting. What usually happens in situations like this is that reports start talking about it, and everyone gets upset about what the reporters are saying everyone is upset about. It's a big circle of mess. Rep. Kern will certainly reap the whirlwind for what she said, but I don't think anyone is being fair, and I don't think the homosexual crowd cares about being fair. They see a political opportunity in this. Which is exactly what Rep. Kerns was discussing with her Republican peers.

Chris - I am on your side but you just walked into this one. Preston will tell you that ABC is liberally biased.

Preston:
Hundreds of thousands of people around the world today are calling Rep. Kern's comments hate speech and anti-gay rhetoric. Check out ABC News website. A smaller group of members of the religious right - or individuals who base their beliefs on thoes of the religious right - are defending Rep. Kern. Reasonable, intelligent and moderate citizens in the US do not belief in a gay agenda. They believe in equality and fairness. Rep. Kern stated untruths in her comments, she lied, she said things that are in no way backed up by statistics or research. (If there are studies supporting all her outrageous claims, why has she, or anyone else, not cited them?) Kern uses "the homosexual agenda" to describe all equality seeking gays. Most gays want equality. Therefore, her speech is directed against the gays of this country.
We all have the right to our own personal views. No one has the right to use their personal views to discriminate against law abiding citizens.

Tanya - you didn't take the time to read my posts. I explained every one of your questions already. It is not hateful to say that you don't approve of something. For example, I don't approve of nude modeling. That does not mean I hate the people that participate in nude modeling. People misuse this word HATE all the time. What Rep. Kern said was not hateful. She said nothing specifically about homosexuality at all. She was talking politics to politicians, about other political organizations such as the homosexual lobbyiests and funders. As far as your comments about MA go, well... So you say. You look through different filters than I do. While you might think that the indicators are positive, I might look at them and say, no - they're indicative of a spiritual downfall.

Preston, comments like yours were also brought up in Massachusetts where gay marriage is legal. In fact, my wife and I are legally married thanks to MA. The sky has not fallen, the world has not demolished. In fact, MA's economy is better than it was before.

Since when did the bible teach hatred? I thought it taught tollerance and acceptance of others? Doesn't the bible also teach that God is the only one who shall judge? Maybe everyone should take a close look at themselves about now!

You don't have to like our lifestyle, but any person in their right mind would have to admit that saying homosexuals were worse than terrorists would have to agree that she stepped over the line. Homosexuals are not killing innocent people. Also, since when is it not illegal to say hateful words as an elected official (Rep Kern) said towards religious groups such as Islam? She should be censured for those words alone! We should not live in a hate filled society! There is a reason why our founding fathers made church and state seperate....which is why Rep. Kern should not be up preaching at gatherings, instead she should be conducting politics and not hate. Isn't she there to represent all 100 % of her precinct?

Gay teens are already being targeted because of Rep. Kern's speech. How will you all feel when blood is shed by her remarks? The acceptance of her words only means blood on her hands from innocent homosexuals who are here living our lives, peacefully, paying taxes just like anyone else.

But was I born with OCD or was it a choice? I dunno. There are no "facts" that support that OCD exists. Because there are no facts supporting that I was "born with it," it MUST be a choice. I'm out for real this time! HAHA!

Wow, I have a headache. I actually need to get some work done today. This discussion flares up my OCD. Have a good day. Peace to all!

1: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <a religious person> <religious attitudes>
2: of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances <joined a religious order>
3 a: scrupulously and conscientiously faithful.
The definition of "religious" has nothing to do with whether or not they go to church. Because your "studies" show that a large population of the US believe in God, this would not support your claim that "There are more non-religious people that believe homosexuality is wrong, than there are religious" if there are a large % that believe that homosexuality is wrong.

todd - In response to your last question, "How does it affect you if 2 men that you will never know get married?" It wouldn't wind up being just 2 men would it? Everytime the Democrats have lobbied to make something legal throughout the U.S., it has always started as something small and seemingly innocent. In Oklahoma for example, casinos and alcohol sells used to be illegal. When the arguments were being made to support both, they were presented as very small and why should that affect us. Now it touches everyone. You can't drive very far in Oklahoma without seeing a casino or liquer joint. What will the legalisation of homosexual marriage do to the country? What will it lead to? I have a much better chance keeping my family away from it with the status quo, than I do your way. That is guaranteed.

todd - Also, as far as the facts being against you, I meant that there are no facts that support the "gay" birth theory. There are quite a few studies that scientists have conducted, and some of them have corelations that seem to lean towards a "gay" birth, but there has been no accepted scientific research that proves that is the case. I brought that up because a lot of people like to compare the homosexual movement to the civil rights movement, or the women's right to vote movement. There is no comparison if homosexuality is a choice.

todd - I didn't take the time to look up any actual links for you to look at concerning any specific study, because they are all the same, and have been form most of my adult life. When I say majority, I mean over 50%. When I say large majority, I mean over 75%. What I was saying is that in almost every poll, a large majority (90% range) always claim to believe in God. However; they are not religious, because when asked if they regularly attend Church, that is always a much lower percentage, not even a majority. And as I stated and you verified with your poll, there is always a majority that disagree with homosexuality. So, my assumptions based on all that is that people are against homosexuality not because of religious reasons, but other reasons. That was just a response to Chris's religious argument last night.

Actually, Chris, it wouldn't be that difficult to determine whether or not the Jesse Kern listed on the dockets you found was indeed the son of Sally Kern - I'd just hit either Westlaw or Lexis and go in under their public records and people finder databases to verify. It shouldn't be difficult at all. Great find on OCSN, by the way.

HOLY CRAP CHRIS! GGGGGGGGGGREAT FIND ON OSCN. That is great!

Preston - I would like to inquire where you get some of your facts? What facts are against the "born gay" argument? These are OPINIONS. There is a big difference. "There are more non-religious people that believe homosexuality is wrong, than there are religious. Because it is only a small percentage of people in the U.S. who claim to be religious. However; the large majority of the U.S. claims to believe in God." How can a small % be religious but a large % believe in God? In my estimation, the large majority that believes in God would be considered "religious." Also, what are these percentages? "Large" and "small" is pretty vague. The only poll that I could find was in 02 and it stated that 65% were against the marriage of 2 men. Is 65% "large?" Are these the same people that believe that "homosexuality is wrong?" Where are you getting these percentages? How does it affect you if 2 men that you will never know get married? They pay taxes do they not? You are against a legal marriage, are you against a civil union as well?

THERE ARE COURT RECORDS that show a JESSE KERN in court for oral sodomy in Oklahoma in 1989.

Does Sally Kern have a gay son? There have been rumors online that Sally Kern has a gay son. I do not know for a fact if she has a gay son, but her official OK House of Representatives page previously said she had grown sons named Jesse and Nathan. After the scandal broke, Kern REMOVED the note stating that she had two sons from her official House webpage -- very suspicious. A blog on Queerty.com said that court records accessible online show a Jesse Kern (I cannot confirm that this is the same Jesse Kern who is Sally's son) was charged with attempted oral sodomy in the Oklahoma State Courts.

I just went online and the court records are there. You can see them at this address: http://www.oscn.net/applications/ocisweb/GetCaseInformation.asp?submitted=true&viewtype=caseGeneral&casemasterID=446&db=Cleveland

Very easy to access. This Jesse Kern was also charged with "trying to obtain money by false pretences" and driving with a suspended lisence.

From the Queerty.com Blog: Meanwhile, more internet chatter led us to the Oklahoma State Courts Network, a beautiful internet archive of the state's criminal records. And guess what we found?! Three - count 'em, three! - cases against a man named Jesse Jacob Kern, who may or may not be related to Sally and Steve Kern, who just happen to have a son named Jesse. The first Kern case involved some attempted oral sodomy and went down, so to speak, on March 27, 1989. That charge was dismissed by request of the state on June 9, 1989. What's most interesting, however, is that this Mr. Kern just happened to be in court on that same day on a charge of trying to "obtain money by false pretenses," whatever that means. Kern also stepped up to a driving under suspension charge. He was convicted of both on October 10, 1989.

I am not writing this to put any blame on Sally Kern's son. The point is that it is so often the case when there is a crusading right-winger damning the gays... we later find out they themselves are a closeted homosexual or that their family is somehow touched intimately by the issue of homosexuality. I have also read online that Sally's husband has recently publicly denied that they have a gay son. It would certainly be a tough family to grow up in. I do think this facet of the story is relevant as it gives us a more complete picture of who this person Sally Kern is. She put herself and her family in the spotlight by making outrageous and hateful comments in a public forum.

Preston - I thought that it was one of your posts that stated God loves the homosexual but hates their lifestyle. Excuse me for my mistake. I never said that discussion doesn't "matter." My point is, what good does a discussion that includes name calling and mocking do? I'm glad that your discussion with Matt was productive - THIS IS GOOD. Other discussions of your's that I have read did not accomplish as much. You obviously are very intelligent. I think that the way you present your arguments appears arrogant, although, my wife would say the same about me. Discussion should be approached very carefully or it won't accomplish anything. You should peruse the other blogs on the same topic. There IS a lot of hate out there (ON BOTH SIDES.)