According to league sources, the NBA will not realign any divisions or teams to accommodate the relocation of the Sonics to Oklahoma City. Whenever the team lands in Oklahoma, either next season or in 2010, it will continue in its current division, which includes Utah, Portland, Minnesota and Denver.
Although Oklahoma City is geographically closest to Southwest Division teams — Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Memphis and New Orleans — the league isn't interested in undoing the system's current balance by adding a sixth team to the division. The 30-team NBA has six five-team divisions.
Realigning Memphis or New Orleans to add Oklahoma City to the Southwest Division also isn't an option, sources said, because of how well the division's current structure works. On a smaller scale, the league also wants to avoid an Oklahoma City team joining the Southwest Division mix and creating a glut of divisional teams competing in such close proximity.
Mavs owner Mark Cuban, one of two owners who opposed the Sonics' relocation request last week, has said too many teams in the Texas and Oklahoma region is bad for the league.
"There's not enough TV weight,” Cuban said earlier this month before the Sonics played the Mavs in Dallas. "There's not enough demand from a TV perspective from outside that little area. It's nice, but when you've got San Antonio versus Dallas, which you'd think is a great marquee matchup, no one outside our area (cares). That's bad. You don't expand the market at all.”
The league last approved realignment in 2003 to accommodate the expansion Charlotte Bobcats for the start of the 2004-05 season. New Orleans moved from the East to the West, and Charlotte was placed in the East. That's also when the league went from two divisions per conference — Atlantic and Central in the East and Midwest and Pacific in the West — to its current six-division structure.
But league officials think an Oklahoma City team can work in the Northwest Division. Although Seattle is much closer to Portland and Salt Lake City than Oklahoma City, Oklahoma City is much closer to Denver and Minnesota than Seattle. So, in effect, keeping the team in its current division would offset distance issues.
From a competitive standpoint, division placement only marginally matters. NBA teams play divisional opponents four times apiece (two home games/two away games) and other in-conference opponents three or four times each. Teams play non-conference opponents twice each season (one home game/one road game).
The NBA does, however, place importance on division winners, rewarding those teams with an automatic top four seed.
Utah, for example, finished as this season's fourth seed despite Houston and Phoenix finishing with a better record. The No. 5-seeded Rockets, however, hold home-court advantage over the Jazz in the playoffs.
That said, a Northwest Division placement could bode well for Oklahoma City's prospective team considering the heavyweights in the Southwest Division.
But, there's no telling if the NBA will tweak the current playoff system as some enthusiasts prefer — or when the balance of power will transfer from the Spurs, Rockets, Hornets and Mavericks to the up-and-coming Blazers, Wolves and already formidable Jazz and Nuggets.
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Ah Phil, such unabashed idiotic ignorance could give people ideas about Seattle that are as woefully misguided as your charming little assessment of Oklahoma City.
Speaking as one from Seattle ...... why are you all the Seattlites so hung up on "this team" instead of an expansion franchise? Frankly .... the Sonic colors suck. (ie: Minnesota has a far better look than the Sonics ever will).
But here's the real issue. Green & Durant are mere kids. By the time those two become valuable veteran players that could actually make a run at a title, both their contracts will be up. The chances of either of them resigning with an Oklahoma team whose sole tourist attraction is tumbleweeds, probably is not high. So the ultimate revenge for Seattle? Get an expansion team, and then make absolutely certain that neither Durant or Green resign with Oklahoma. Offer them half the planet if that's what it takes. Good ole Clay is left with a loser team and all of them thare plans a'dashed. And how can we afford to do this? Because by then we have that new bigger and better stadium that the NBA just HAS TO have, plus a market that is four or five times the size of that there hand-car-wash infested imbred Oklahoma.
Although they do have them thar nice lookin dresses on them women-folk. All plaid & buet-i-ful. Why shucks.
Did the toothless hillbillies really just put the wood to Microsoft? A Seattle columnist is referring to Oklahoma as the Raiders. I kinda like it. We have the Sooners (cheaters) and the Raiders (pillagers) and Seattle sucks!
I agree.. Who knows what would have been acceptable
to Frank Chopp?
For what it is worth (lol, not a lot)
Qwest Field cost $300 million and Paul Allen
contributed $130 million plus cost overruns.
Safeco Field cost $517 million and the public paid
$340 and the Mariners paid the rest. The Mariners
had a $200 million debt when Safeco Field opened.
The agreement was that all profits went to paying down
that debt. Once that debt was settled, then the
public would share 10% of the profits each year. The debt is down to $53 million and the Mariners made 17
million last year.
Jill, I agree with you. Bennett has the right/necessity to propose what pencils out for him and his group.
The way I look at is Bennett spent $350
million to buy the Sonics.. That is an investment
and when/if he decides to sell he will make a profit.
At least so far the values of franchises in all sports
have kept going up. He will probably make a handsome
profit on that transaction. He doesn't have to pay
a dime on the multi-million dollar upgrade to Ford
Center. And, it sounds like he has a sweatheart lease at Ford Center to rake in most/all of the
profits each night from concessions etc ...
Is there a link stating that Bennett was kicking in $100 million for the Renton arena? I keep reading he expected the public to pay for the whole thing..
Ok, it is getting late and I haven't hugged a tree
yet.. lol Good night ..
chris in OKC. It seems Bennett's Group may have turned down an offer for a Privately financed Arena by one of our area's developers. The proposal apparently led to the mysterious fourth partner either voluntarily withdrawing or being forced out. I'm sure we will hear more of this in the next few weeks.
BREAKING NEWS: Seattle Post-Intelligencer is reporting that Slade Gorton is focused on securing a replacement team in contradiction to Stern's claim that a "scorched earth" strategy is being employed. If the NBA can guarantee Seattle a replacement team, the Sonics would not be held to their lease and the team could be playing in OKC next season...What do you think OKC, would you urge the NBA to offer a guarantee to Seattle in order to have the NBA in OKC next year. Remember, the Ford Center only has 5-10 years before it needs to be replaced. The clock is ticking, you better get your moneys worth.
Portland Chris...It will be interesting to see if the lawsuits bring out sufficient negative PR to make the following votes not such a slam dunk. Would love to see Stern go under oath...
Baseball did the same thing. Camden Yards changed the playing field and what had been fine ball parks suddenly became obsolete. Everyone had to have the retro park...now after several billion dollars of remodeling and demolition, Camden Yards is back to drawing in the teens, because of lousy teams. The lesson is...in the long run it is the game that counts. Shakespeare had it..."the plays the thing".
The Key was fine and better than most in what it's primary function was...to put on a basketball game. Stern prefers to focus on the ancillary aspects...T-shirt shop and restaurants, etc. An example of the broken business model of pro sports.
Just to highlight the most intriguing passage of the previous post: the New Orleans Hornets reminded the Board of the Article 7 provision before the owners vote on Friday. No other team made any submissions regarding the Sonics' application.
An interesting situation surrounding the BOG meeting last Friday:
The Sonics requested approval for location for the 2008-09, '09-10 and 10-11 seasons f the team is unable to resolve the KeyArena lease litigation this summer. The NBA's counsel told the relocation committee that Article 7 of the NBA Constitution does not permit approval of a relocation application for seasons other than the season following the application (in this case the '08-09 season).
The Board approved the move for next season and if the Sonics renew its application for either of the '09-10 or '10-11 seasons, the Board should approve the renewed application unless there's a major change in the circumstances.
It is interesting to note that the New Orleans Hornets reminded the Board of the Article 7 provision before the owners vote on Friday. No other team made any submissions regarding the Sonics' application.
Let me be the first to say that I am impressed that okies know how to use computers and access the Internet. That being said, some of y'all need to look up the definition of a "troll" as it relates to online discussions.
Where Chopp, Nickels, etc. made their mistake was in not offering anything. Even worse than not offering anything, they played into Bennett's hands by failing to even bring a proposal to a vote. Thus they gave Bennett the opportunity to say he was the only party who actually offered to put money on the table. Had they offered even a pittance, it would have shown there was at least the possibility of a future agreement. That wouldn't have likely stopped relocation before the 2010-2011 season, but it would have made it a lot tougher for Bennett to ask for arbitration when he did.
Have you noticed how the trolls' predictions tend to fall short of reality? We hear the common refrain, "we knew that was going to happen. You just wait until... (add whatever dimming glimmer of hope they're clinging to)"
Roger,
I couldn't find the link to the site you requested.
However, here is another link where Bennett reportedly
says he is concerned about OKC's viablility as a
long term home to the NBA because of a lack of
broadcasting revenue.
Mickey the Spurs have played in AT&T Center for only 5 seasons,(formerly the SBC Center). They do surprisingly want a venue tax of $75 million to go to the voters for approval. Initially in 2007 that number was as high as $175 million in technological upgrades etc., but that number has gone down to $75 million.
But there is your magic number boys and girls, 5 years, yes 5 seasons and we need $75 million more.
Of course, Jill is right on the mark but add to that, that there is no reason to believe that Frank Chopp would have agreed to it or that the city/state could have come up with their 225 million. Even on the longshot they did, they would have expected enough revenue to pay back their investment and that would have been a deal breaker in lease negotiations. If Seattle had held the same line with the Seahawks and the Mariners, they would have lost them too.
Bill said, "If he was really serious about staying in Seattle he should realized that his offer was going to have to be somewhere in the range of a 50/50 split between public and private financing." Bill, the problem was that Bennett spend $350 million on the team. If he spent another $225 million, his investment would be over the half billion dollar mark. The average NBA team makes $10 million a year. That would given him an annual return on his investment of less than 2.5%. It works in the NFL with their huge television contract and revenue sharing, but not in the NBA. He was going to stay in Seattle with a publicly funded arena, because that's the only way he could get even a minimally acceptable return on his investment. A 2% return on a half billion dollar investment is virtually philanthropy, and most billionaires are generally only philanthropic with that kind of money in their home cities.
"Roger, Bennetts best option was to realize that Seattle probably was not going to support a 100% public subsidized new arena"...He offered up to $100 mil...It's really difficult to downplay the true effect of I-91...We all know why it was passed
Roger,
Bennetts best option was to realize that Seattle
probably was not going to support a 100% public
subsidized new arena. If he was really serious about
staying in Seattle he should realized that his offer
was going to have to be somewhere in the range of a
50/50 split between public and private financing.
Perhaps he could have been more agreeable to having
a discussion about upgrading Key Arena, but he took
that off of the table right away.
My opinion is I-91 didn't prevent Bennett from working
a deal with Seattle. Bennett just decided he wanted
a brand new arena with 100% public funding and that
proposal just didn't fly with the legislature
(or with I-91 within the Seattle city limits)..
Seattle was recently granted an expansion
franchise with Major League Soccer. The majority
owner is Joe Roth (founder of Revolution Studios in
Hollywood) and the minority owners are comedian
Drew Carey and Paul Allens Vulcan Sports. I-91
hasn't caused them any problems and they will be
playing at Qwest Field in Seattle starting next summer.
"This sports team owner is about to take y'all for a big ride and it will be very very expensive."...Cool...I love rides...Can't wait for it...Thanks for the advice
"Philip of OKC, Bennett has already gone on record that Ford Center will be obsolete in 5 - 10 years and in order to remain competive in the NBA, OKC will have to build a brand new state of the arena"...Do you have a link to that quote?...Can't say I've seen Bennett saying the Ford will only last another 5 to 10 years
"If the game was just beginning in April 2007 I'd like to know where this game was ? It certainly wasn't being played in the Seattle area..."...Well since the state told him to shove it and Seattle passed I-91 (helped his exit btw) and took the city out of the equation what were his options...I mean aside from the massive $4 million pledge from the Shoots...Your gripes would be much more legit if Bennett had to actually turn down something over the past 2 years
One more thing, since you guys are closer and might have been there. Why does San Antonio now need a 200 million dollar upgrade in their Arena for the Spurs to stay and be competitive? Isn't there Arena almost brand new?
Has any one else wondered what Bennett, his partners and Stern think now? Don't you ever wonder if they would have had a crystal ball that said Seattle would fight rather than cave in if they would have gone ahead and tried to do the deal? Or tried to ram it through instead of trying to be a bit more subtle? Ever wonder if Bennett has cussed out David Stern for getting him and his reputation for honesty and business acumen involved in this sleazy deal?
Bennett put on a charade of trying to get a new arena
for Seattle from Nov of 2006 thru April of 2007 when
his plan was denied by the politicians.
He pretty much disappeared from the Seattle scene from
April 2007 thru Oct. 2007.
So, you might say he only worked to build an arena
plan for 6 months, instead of the year that Howard
insists they agreed to.
Hmmmm, Bennett also wrote an e-mail in April 2007
saying that I am a man possessed. The game is just
beginning boys ...
If the game was just beginning in April 2007 I'd
like to know where this game was ? It certainly
wasn't being played in the Seattle area...
Bennett's ruse was his self-imposed one year deadline. What was that? It is the equivalent of closing your eyes and counting to ten as far as the size of the challenge was. His mistake was in thinking that weak deadline and the expected failure would satisfy the naysayers. Hardly. It only exposed his dirty plot. He took us for the stupid hicks rather than the othere way around. The Schultz lawsuit is merely the expected ton of bricks he deserves for his arrogance and naivete. He could use a swift kick to boot.
Philip of OKC,
Bennett has already gone on record that Ford Center
will be obsolete in 5 - 10 years and in order to
remain competive in the NBA, OKC will have to build
a brand new state of the arena ..
How will you feel about junking Ford Arena in 2013
and forking over $500 million of hard earned money for a brand new arena ?
You Seattle guys just go round and round. The cold, hard truth is the lease is up in two years and you don't have an arena that meets NBA standards beyond that. Period. End of Story.
OKC wanted an expansion team more than the Sonics, they couldn't get one because the NBA is not looking to expand. Taking Seattle's team was the best option at bringing the NBA to OKC, Seattle be damned.
Mike you guys DESERVE aball team...theres no doubt in that. But we want Durant and company. Thats that. It doesnt get an easier than that. We have put our time in a an NBA supportive city. We had to wait for an expansion...you guys should have to wait for an expansion. I dont mean it in a bad way...but hey..it is what it is. Thats just how I feel.
Well, you've hogged the ball for 41 years. We finally got a pass, and we're gonna dribble with it and shoot! If we drop the ball, I'm sure another market will pick up the rebound and be off down the other end of the court. Just let us play with the ball a little bit. that's all we ask. Yeah, my analogy was stupid and weak. I just made it up out of fun.
Well there's the problem in a nutshell, Mike. You people don't realize, just cannot imagine, that Clay Bennett would ever do anything to hurt the home city he loves so very much. And yet we in Seattle know that you Oklahoma just signed lease deals & financial arrangements with good Ole' Clay, that strongly suggest you have no idea what is being done to you. But that's ok. Eventually you will "get it," but it won't be until professional sports owners to do you what they are doing to Seattle. Which is have you taxpayers pay for stadiums that have no chance of paying for themselves, but before you pay them off, you'll get the honor of building them new stadiums because the old (10 year old) one is so "run down and out of date." And when you balk, well fast forward to what is going on now.
Like I said before, the larger more experienced cities are fed up with all of this. New York & LA, San Fran, etc, do you see these cities paying for new stadiums? No you do not. What you do see are private interests financing the stadiums. And why is that? Because the cities told the owners to take their teams and shove them, because they'd already been suckered by the con artists. But you in Oklahoma have not had this done to you yet. So what do you do? You take the bait like hungry trout, hook line sinker. Because you are young and inexperienced, and have never had a Clay Bennett do to you what he is doing to Seattle. Not to worry. You'll learn your lesson. But until you do all we in Seattle can do is sadly smile and let you guys do what you gotta do. Just like the Father who knows his kid is about to do something really really stupid, but insists on doing it anyways. Some things, you just gotta learn on your own. Like: This sports team owner is about to take y'all for a big ride and it will be very very expensive.
I think there were 8 teams with shizzier attendance this year than the Sonics...so thats why none of this makes. I tell you who I blame...Wally Walker. He started all of this by signing Jim McIlvaine to a 30 mill contrat instead of giving the money to Kemp...that was the downward spiral.:)
Ok..well I think the analogy is horrible Mike..but I will go with it. First off no one hates the Sonics...everyone hates the owners and Stern. But the fans LOVE their basketball team. First off..there is more money Seattle...bigger cable deal...bigger radio deal...bigger everything. 2nd..all any of this has to do with is adult men with huge egos and toys. Thats all it is. The league has done this twice now with Charlotte and Memphis....both decisions have backfired financially. The difference being Seattle didnt lay down like the other cities did. Now..I admit our leaders dropped the ball and they suck...but all of this is personal...nothing more.Thats why your shizzy analogy doesnt work Mike....economically..no one knows why someone would move from a bigger market to a small market....do the math...a monkey could do it. You guys deserve a team..but an expansion would be more suited. Small markets get expansions...cause its a test. Thats my opinion but Im sure Ill get blasted for it and no one will agree...but Im cool with that.
OK, Oklahoma City had a child with the Sonics, but Seattle (the father) wants to keep the child for himself, even though he never married the woman (Sonics). He divorced the woman, and hated the child, yet he wants full custody. but Oklahoma, the mom, can provide new clothes, and a new chance at a better life than in the ghettos of Seattle. How does the court decide?
Money talks and Seattle has more millionaires and billionaires I think than any other state. Im prob wrong...but you never know what can happen in a 2 yr time...Ive seen stranger things happen.
Point being that Oklahoma is showing it's lack of experience in signing the deals you did with Bennett. There's a word that describes this pertinent to both these posts. It's what you got done to you by this guy. And how do we know this? Because they just did it to us in Seattle in 1995.
Seattle's case is strong, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a done deal. Even though specific performance is spelled out in the lease, the court may find this provision unenforcable. Courts generally prefer monetary damages as remedy.
It's like this:
Oklahoma: I'm going to sleep with my boyfriend because he loves me so very much, and he says I have to prove it to him.
Seattle: Well dear, that may be a mistake, because chances are he doesn't love you if he's demanding THAT.
Oklahoma: Oh yes he does Dad. You are so wrong about this!
True, Ballmers group didn't get anywhere with the state capitol. But, at the same time Ballmers group
doesn't have a team. I think that is why Olympia
didn't do anything with that idea.
My opinion is Bennett didn't meet us even halfway.
He only had one solution. A $500 million arena
paid for with public money. And he didn't even have
an option to buy the land in Renton. Maybe we could
build the arena on pontoons and let it float on
Lake Washington, like a couple of our bridges do ..
lol
Good reasoning Chris..I still have this feeling that just bites at me. The feeling that their is more out there then we have heard. Maybe its just unrealistic on my part but the feeling is there none the less.
Philip, don't misrepresent the general view of Shultz's case against Bennett is credible. It is viewed as a longshot from both the legal community within Seattle and outside the region. It is viewed as a longshot not because it is without merit, but because there is no precedent on the scale of a sports franchise transaction for rescission of a purchase contract. The chance that it ever actually goes to trial (or any lawsuit for that matter) is pretty remote. Both parties must weigh the risk of letting a court decide the outcome versus reaching a compromise that both parties can live with. So the more important question is whether Bennett will be compelled to avoid enormous potential losses and offer an acceptable resolution to the dispute. We've already seen what he fears that might be in his own communications with the court stating that the strategy of Seattle is to force him to sell.
You guys will get the team now more than likely sometime in the futurbut would it be funny if some the players now..when their contract was up...came and signed with the new revamped Sonics.It could happen.
I honestly think that there is more info out there that no one has been privy to yet. What happened Ed Evans (who was part of the original PBC group)?..Didnt he have Seattle ties? Did he realize that the group had no intentions of keeping the team here? I dont know...all of this just seems fishy. Its like someone has an X Factor so to speak and they are waiting to use it. I dont know who does..but some does. Regardless...the NBA will be here and that new state of the art facility will be built (Emerald City Arena)...we will have NHL and NBA as well as Pro Soccer,NFL and MLB. Seattle will ultimately prevail when it is all said and done in the end. All of it will show the kind of major league city we are...ITS BIG TIME UP HERE BABY...BIG TIME!
Here's one of the original interviews with Schultz after he sold the Sonics:
"When asked what he would tell a Seattle kid who loves the Sonics, Schultz said: "I told my children, and children of those I know, that I did this obviously with concern and trepidation. But I believe strongly this new group has a commitment to staying, provided elected officials meet him halfway."
Schultz said city and state officials should realize now that the Sonics really may leave Seattle.
"If the city didn't believe we'd potentially move the team, we obviously have a group now that does have an out," Schultz said. "But that's not what [the new owners] want to do.".....
My question is, since elected officials barely even met Bennett, much less halfway, where is the bad faith? The group did commit to staying with a new arena, and there's no evidence that they wouldn't have stayed with a new arena.
No Dana, the Muckleshoots only offered land, nothing more. The problem has always been funding and they had no answers. Bill, Ballmers group offered that and didn't even get as far in Olympia as Bennett did. Nobody outside of Seattle, with any expertise in contract law believes that Shultz has a credible case. Seattle is losing their team for the same reason Shultz sold the team.
I don't think the league will go upside down, as Chris opined. But if that is Seattle's intention, of trying to upend the whole apple crate because a new owner wants to do things his way, then you may not just have OKC against your city, but all of the NBA cities. Aren't we a land of FREE enterprise anymore, or are we all at beck and call of the dead-end courts. The way everyone is acting, it's like Seattle will lose a limb, a complete neighborhood or something. It's just a sport, for goodness sake. If it drags out and you keep them for 2 years, then good luck with them. But I don't think it needs be delayed that long. You'll just find more excuses to keep them 2 years down the road. The sooner they come here the better for all involved - even Seattle. Your girlfriend breaks up with you, you gotta move on.
See here's the thing Oklahoma. You've been suckered by a used car salesman. The first part is getting all you saps to believe he is here "because he loves the community." Step two will be leveraging you for as much tax money as you are willing to give him, and it this point it looks like he's won big on that one. Step three is selling the team for a huge profit. And if that means those owners are out-of-towners, so beit.
The fact that most of you see no problem in how all this has been pulled off, doesn't say much about general ethics in Oklahoma. Which is sad if this is the case.
And I agree with you that Seattle's political situation is a joke, and that both papers lean so far to the left that it's difficult to take anything they write seriously. But in this case, you people have been duped by what is being reported. The city actually HAS stepped up and spent well over a #billion to fund professional sports, but once you do that it does not mean the end to it. As it turns out, it is merely the first payment. Professional sports teams owners, at least those of the Sonics, now want a new arena with LESS luxury suites, full restaurants & etc where they control 100% of the profits, they want a mere $500 mil (compared to half that in Oklahoma), and gawd only knows what else these shiesters will try to eek out of taxpayers?! Seattle finally said "You know what, we're tired of this." But it wasn't for NOT building new arenas. It was because Clay Bennett didn't want to stay in Seattle and used all these demands to "prove" Seattle would not step up. And as wise people know, if an owner does this to one city, eventually he will do this to the other city.
Oklahoma is in bed with someone who has proven to be dishonest. So I hope your lease has teeth when he turns around and does this to all of you. But judging from how excited you are about this team, and how your politicans have caved in like wet mud to all his demands, the chances of Clay Bennett taking you all for a financial ride are pretty high.
Also, one thing that rarely gets mentioned is that the Muckleshoots offered to donate the land and help with the costs of a new arena. It was rejected out of hand. Why?
Philip, the Internet argument simply doesn't hold water. How many people actually take the time to see how a story is being spun elsewhere? You, me, and a few others. Considering that the two metro areas have a combined population of about seven million, that's nothing. Look at the posting from Mike of Oklahoma City regarding a judge throwing the case out. There's more home-spun factual errors there than you can shake a stick at, "...Seattle said put up or shut up" is a classic. But this is simply the result of slanted reporting. I don't think that the good citizens of Oklahoma City are being dumb about it any more than my own neighbors, but I have seen quite a bit of bias reporting both here and in the Seattle Times. By the way, the Times is a rag with crappy reporting. The Tacoma Tribune is also liberal toilet paper, but the sports commentary has been much more level headed. www.thenewstribune.com
The fact is that cities with a single pro team tend to do well with that one team...i.e., Sacramento, Salt Lake City, San Antonio, Portland,...smaller markets that have more than one, the NBA franchise suffers...New Orleans, Charlotte and in the past, Kansas City and Buffalo. The NBA is the red headed stepchild when competing against the other, bigger sports. OKC may do well, however the league can see it's future...the big markets and then a bump down past the second tier cities to the smaller one team cities...the league just has a broken economic model. As long as they continue business as usual, the stripping of teams ala Seattle will continue. This OKC type maneuver only delays the day when the league goes upside down.
Two war dogs going at it. This ought to be interesting. We'll see which dog has the biggest fight in this tussle. Schultz sold the team in the first place. He didn't want them anymore. Bennett has already won two rounds (2-0): getting the vote in OKC, and getting the votes from the NBA Board. It's been an uphill climb all the way for OKC. Yeah, we're the underdogs here, but we won a few skirmishes when most didn't think we could. We got a little momentum going.
Very true david...It holds true for both the litigation concerning the lease and future litigation from Schultz attempting to rescind the sale. Even though specific performance is spelled out in the contract regarding the lease, that a court will enforce this provision is not as iron-clad as some in Seattle are hoping for. The same goes for the folks in OKC looking to dismiss Shultz's pending lawsuit.
Clay could have proposed building a new arena with
a 50/50 split between private and public money.
It sounds like Clays group has the money for that.
Perhaps Chopp would have voted for that .. But, I
can't get in his head to know for sure.
Also his proposal to build a new arena in Renton
had another major flaw. The land was already owned
by another company and this company is currently
building a shopping center/business complex/
condo complex on that land. This company stated
that they weren't interested in selling the land
to Clay.
Mayor Nichols made many requests to Clay to bargain
over a new deal to remodel Key Arena. Perhaps if
Clay would have at least listened they could have
worked something out. Clay flat out refused to
even consider a Key Arena upgrade. He wanted a new
state of the art arena paid 100% by the public or
else .....
Here is a case of everyone trying to be right, and swing their E-Peen saying I know a lot about this, or that, on both sides. The fact remains... All of us are going to be in the dark, speculating, and speculating until the trial starts, and ends after its six day period. NO ONE KNOWS JACK, despite what they say they know. This is both sides. Question is, for those who think they know what will happen, and are so sure of it, who will end up looking dumb?
Here is a case of everyone trying to be right, and swing their E-Peen saying I know a lot about this, or that, on both sides. The fact remains... All of us are going to be in the dark, speculating, and speculating until the trial starts, and ends after its six day period. NO ONE KNOWS JACK, despite what they say they know. This is both sides. Question is, for those who think they know what will happen, and are so sure of it, who will end up looking dumb?
Mike, no one is arguing that Bennett bought anything other than a business. The sale of businesses are consummated through a contract. Contracts are enforced by the legal system. When a breach in the contract occurs either party to the contract has legal remedies either spelled out in the contract or as determined by the court. However likely it is to go to trial, there is absolutely 0% chance that this case gets thrown out of court.
I think the judge will throw this case out. Look, Clay Bennett bought a business - pure and simple. He knew what his business needed to be competitive and make money. He asked officials to build a newer arena, he went through all the channels, and they wouldn't budge, wouldn't even consider it. He tried and tried. Wouldn't it have been simpler just to keep the Sonics in Seattle, make money from the franchise, and get another one for OKC when the time was right? Yes, it would have. But Seattle said put up or shut-up to Bennett. Bennett put up, now Seattle is surprised that he called their bluff and did exactly what he said he would do if he couldn't make his team profitable in Seattle. Why drag this out any longer? Are professional sports a business, or are they a city's property? Why, they're a business, hence the name professional. But there isn't anything professional about the way the former owner of the Sonics is acting. Maybe Shultz can claim he was drunk when he made the deal. Maybe he can prove he was mentally instable. Why wouldn't Bennett want to stay in SEattle? It's a lovely area. Much lovelier than OKC. It's got a bigger population base. When all the facts come out about the dealings, perhaps Bennett can counter-sue for lost revenues and court costs that a drawn-out suit would result in.
Philip, contract law is area that I happen to know quite a lot about. Your arguments are irrelevant. The court will look at the facts in the case, not hypotheticals. "Good faith best efforts" is articulated in legal language to mean that their was both an obligation and a desire. Shultz's case hinges on the ability to prove that Bennett and Co. entered into the purchase agreement fraudulently by either not fulfilling his obligation or misrepresenting his intentions. If you think that Schultz does not have a case, then you are basically saying that you are 100% sure that Bennett never intended to move the team upon purchasing it from the previous owner or are sure that no factual evidence exists that could prove this.
Philip, Watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV4QLK0HnOc
Do you think David Stern is a honest guy? Watch him pull this stunt on our city when the 'soon to be named team' relocates to Albuquerque, Reno, or Fresno.
Dana, you're OKC media arguement is silly. The internet makes your point irrelevent. Those of us that are interested read the Times and PI stories just like you do. we also see everyting else that's written on the subject including all the SOS stuff on Sonicscentral. The Key may be a great place to see a game but by every other standard it is the worst in the NBA. The whole good faith thing is a waste of breath if you can't answer my question. What could Bennett have proposed, that Frank Chopp would agree to? The city just proved the best they could come up with was 75 million, so, no deal can get done unless Chopp supports it. Please answer the question.
Philip, this is what I was talking about regarding the Oklahoma City media presenting biased information. I'm guessing that many, if not most, people in your city think that Key Arena is some rundown old shack, when in fact it was completely rebuilt just a short time ago. It's about the same age as Safeco Field, which is considered one of the finest stadiums in the majors, even though it only holds about 45,000. There are other options in the area, Tacoma's arena holds almost 35,000 for basketball and is state of the art, (and in fact hosted the Sonics when Key arena was being rebuilt) but that's not the point. Bennett never bargained in good faith with the city or the area. What he didn't count on was the fact that most people just didn't care and he got cocky and sloppy. I would like him to either pay or honor his lease, other than that, most people just don't care.
The NBA should let Seattle keep their team and rename them the Seattle Whiners. Seems like the perfect fit. They can keep drawing that high revenue in their state of the art arena.
What's stopping Bennett from changing the name and team colors of the Sonics. I'd love to see the OKC whatevers playing at the Key for the next two years. OKC should have a broadcast deal in place too, sut down the Seattle market altogether. When Bennett loses his team after the sale is rescinded OKC' NBA rental can end once again after 2 years.
naes. Actually, by the time they get to OKC they will be more like a 500 million Dollar business. Why would the NBA move the Sonics out of the Northwest Division if they are still going to be in Seattle for the next two years?
We unsderstand the cost associated with bringing a team. We are doing this for economic impact we will pay through the nose to reap the rewards. They will ask for more and then they will give more! The families involved in this ownership do make alot of money and no I don't think they give it all back to Oklahoma but they have made tremendous donations to our community not to mention they are bringing back a 350 million dollar business. We use the arena for other entertainment and events so it was not all just for the Sonics or Bennett.
Are you Seattle trolls here looking for sympathy? If so, you're looking in the wrong place. We see you as being a pompous bunch that has lost touch with reality. Take Phil in Edmonds, for instance...Does he not realize that Key arena is by far the smallest arena in the NBA at less than 400,000sf? How about the fact that it has the fewest seats and produces the lowest revenues in the NBA? Just stupid, I tell you.....and the ignorant arguement that Bennett didn't do enough to get an arena built? Simply answer this question, what could Bennett have proposed, that Frank Chopp would agree to? Please don't answer with something dumb....At least appear to have thought your answer through.
Can't wait for Clay to bring our new team to OKC. OKC has worked long and hard on getting the NBA to come in and now it is finally going to happen. Seattle would be stupid not to take a payoff on the lease.If they try to be stubborn then they will lose millions as well. No one wins if the team is forced to stay in Seattle. Now on to the new name! Outlaws I say! Think it would fly?
both newspapers are completeley biased the seattle times for not looking a little closer at the goings on in oklahoma city and your newspaper being run by bennets wife so evyone is guilty of unethical journalism
Philip, The Seattle Times is a rag, not suitable for TP. However, if you think for a minute that you're getting a balanced, un-biased perspective from your local writers, you're mistaken. I can say this from an un-biased standpoint, I don't care if the Sonics leave town and my posting record would confirm that. But there's been practically no local Oklahoma City news that's mentioned just why Sounders aren't interested in bending over for Stern. A lot has led up to this point, but mostly what I read in the Oklahoman is stuff like, "Seattle politicians won't step up to the plate", "Seattle drops the ball", etc. Again, I will congratulate you guys on your new team, whether it be next year or three years from now, but as I've said before, beware of billionaires with their hands out.
The reason Seattle did not come up with a new plan, is because the whole line about Key Arena being inadequate is a scam. It wasn't "a remodel" in 1995, it was a complete rebuild. It has the best sight lines in the league with action closer to the fans, and this bs about "Seattle not being willing to build a new arena" is a bogus claim. First of all, Seattle built a new basketball arena at the same time they built football & baseball stadiums, and yet we don't hear the NFL & MLB now here a decade later demanding new stadiums again.
Clay Bennett & it appears most of the Oklahoma press, is flat out lying about what is going on here in Seattle. Key Arena is not this old run-down building posters in Oklahoma like to claim it is. It is newer than over half the arenas in the NBA, and David Stern making this noise about "Seattle won't come together to build a facility" is total horse crap. Which is precisely why people in Seattle do not support this heist of our team, because most of us understand that this situation has nothing to do with facilities. It has everything to do with David Stern paying back his buddy for past favors, and the more we hear this guy mouth off about it, and try to justify what he is doing, the worse the NBA looks.
The real revenge in all this, of course, is knowing that Oklahoma now gets to deal with the strong-arm tactics of Clay Bennett. Like the little payroll tax thing he just shoved down your throats. All I can say is "get used to it" because it's the mere tip of the iceberg. You now get to deal with a known liar, who comes with a commissionar who also has been proven to be untrustworthy. The lesson being that David Stern and the NBA will have you build new arenas secured with long lease agreements, but at the same time have nero respect for leases and will do everything they can to break those leases if they feel the need. So in other words, cities, "build us $500mil arenas, and we'll treat our leases as if they are options."
Perhaps it takes 40 years for communities to wise up. The economics fail on all fronts, and thus the NBA is now has to move to smaller markets to pull these kinds of taxpayer scams off. Larger and wiser markets are "onto" their little game, and the NBA is on a dead end road. So say what you will about Seattle, but at least they finally have learned their lesson. The NBA may win this street fight but in the end they lose the war, and that should be fairly evident by the time all this is exposed.
Great articles from Art Thiel. Maybe a little too high-brow than the Okies are used to. Y'all can stick to Darnell Mayberry and his journalistic creditials.
Keep them in the Northwest Division and that way two face Clay can get another MAPS vote for travel cost.Clay doesn't have to worry about travel cost for the playoffs for years with those players.
Wow that Art Thiel dude seems very bitter. I expect to hear bias though from someone reporting from Seattle. In all of this, only very few people in Seattle have spoken with actual thought. He stated that since Clay clarified what he meant by those emails, that Clay is calling Seattle folk idiots. NO HUMAN on earth, can get inside the minds of people and really know what people meant in their statements. That is pretty low of Art to do that. Oh well... Time will tell.
While we continue to get balanced reporting on this subject in Oklahoma, Seattle continues to get a completely biased view of events from the pandering sports writers there. Guys like Art Thiel are just playing to peoples emotions. How very bush league.
Couple of great articles in the Seattle P-I:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBF_enUS246US246&q=oklahoma+city+newspaper
Yeah, bad PR in Seattle. No one really cares about all the people crying in Seattle anymore Kyle, so do us all a favor and tell someone who really cares.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV4QLK0HnOc
Will the new Ford Center be adequate for the Northwest Division? It appears Mr. Stern in the You Tube video above thought Key Arena was state of the art 12 years ago. Here's more proof for Seattle's case; bad PR for Bennett and OKC courtesy of David Stern.
91
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But here's the real issue. Green & Durant are mere kids. By the time those two become valuable veteran players that could actually make a run at a title, both their contracts will be up. The chances of either of them resigning with an Oklahoma team whose sole tourist attraction is tumbleweeds, probably is not high. So the ultimate revenge for Seattle? Get an expansion team, and then make absolutely certain that neither Durant or Green resign with Oklahoma. Offer them half the planet if that's what it takes. Good ole Clay is left with a loser team and all of them thare plans a'dashed. And how can we afford to do this? Because by then we have that new bigger and better stadium that the NBA just HAS TO have, plus a market that is four or five times the size of that there hand-car-wash infested imbred Oklahoma.
Although they do have them thar nice lookin dresses on them women-folk. All plaid & buet-i-ful. Why shucks.
to Frank Chopp?
For what it is worth (lol, not a lot)
Qwest Field cost $300 million and Paul Allen
contributed $130 million plus cost overruns.
Safeco Field cost $517 million and the public paid
$340 and the Mariners paid the rest. The Mariners
had a $200 million debt when Safeco Field opened.
The agreement was that all profits went to paying down
that debt. Once that debt was settled, then the
public would share 10% of the profits each year. The debt is down to $53 million and the Mariners made 17
million last year.
Jill, I agree with you. Bennett has the right/necessity to propose what pencils out for him and his group.
The way I look at is Bennett spent $350
million to buy the Sonics.. That is an investment
and when/if he decides to sell he will make a profit.
At least so far the values of franchises in all sports
have kept going up. He will probably make a handsome
profit on that transaction. He doesn't have to pay
a dime on the multi-million dollar upgrade to Ford
Center. And, it sounds like he has a sweatheart lease at Ford Center to rake in most/all of the
profits each night from concessions etc ...
Is there a link stating that Bennett was kicking in $100 million for the Renton arena? I keep reading he expected the public to pay for the whole thing..
Ok, it is getting late and I haven't hugged a tree
yet.. lol Good night ..
The Key was fine and better than most in what it's primary function was...to put on a basketball game. Stern prefers to focus on the ancillary aspects...T-shirt shop and restaurants, etc. An example of the broken business model of pro sports.
The Sonics requested approval for location for the 2008-09, '09-10 and 10-11 seasons f the team is unable to resolve the KeyArena lease litigation this summer. The NBA's counsel told the relocation committee that Article 7 of the NBA Constitution does not permit approval of a relocation application for seasons other than the season following the application (in this case the '08-09 season).
The Board approved the move for next season and if the Sonics renew its application for either of the '09-10 or '10-11 seasons, the Board should approve the renewed application unless there's a major change in the circumstances.
It is interesting to note that the New Orleans Hornets reminded the Board of the Article 7 provision before the owners vote on Friday. No other team made any submissions regarding the Sonics' application.
I couldn't find the link to the site you requested.
However, here is another link where Bennett reportedly
says he is concerned about OKC's viablility as a
long term home to the NBA because of a lack of
broadcasting revenue.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2003727405_webbennett30m.html
But there is your magic number boys and girls, 5 years, yes 5 seasons and we need $75 million more.
Bennetts best option was to realize that Seattle
probably was not going to support a 100% public
subsidized new arena. If he was really serious about
staying in Seattle he should realized that his offer
was going to have to be somewhere in the range of a
50/50 split between public and private financing.
Perhaps he could have been more agreeable to having
a discussion about upgrading Key Arena, but he took
that off of the table right away.
My opinion is I-91 didn't prevent Bennett from working
a deal with Seattle. Bennett just decided he wanted
a brand new arena with 100% public funding and that
proposal just didn't fly with the legislature
(or with I-91 within the Seattle city limits)..
Seattle was recently granted an expansion
franchise with Major League Soccer. The majority
owner is Joe Roth (founder of Revolution Studios in
Hollywood) and the minority owners are comedian
Drew Carey and Paul Allens Vulcan Sports. I-91
hasn't caused them any problems and they will be
playing at Qwest Field in Seattle starting next summer.
for Seattle from Nov of 2006 thru April of 2007 when
his plan was denied by the politicians.
He pretty much disappeared from the Seattle scene from
April 2007 thru Oct. 2007.
So, you might say he only worked to build an arena
plan for 6 months, instead of the year that Howard
insists they agreed to.
Hmmmm, Bennett also wrote an e-mail in April 2007
saying that I am a man possessed. The game is just
beginning boys ...
If the game was just beginning in April 2007 I'd
like to know where this game was ? It certainly
wasn't being played in the Seattle area...
Bennett has already gone on record that Ford Center
will be obsolete in 5 - 10 years and in order to
remain competive in the NBA, OKC will have to build
a brand new state of the arena ..
How will you feel about junking Ford Arena in 2013
and forking over $500 million of hard earned money for a brand new arena ?
Like I said before, the larger more experienced cities are fed up with all of this. New York & LA, San Fran, etc, do you see these cities paying for new stadiums? No you do not. What you do see are private interests financing the stadiums. And why is that? Because the cities told the owners to take their teams and shove them, because they'd already been suckered by the con artists. But you in Oklahoma have not had this done to you yet. So what do you do? You take the bait like hungry trout, hook line sinker. Because you are young and inexperienced, and have never had a Clay Bennett do to you what he is doing to Seattle. Not to worry. You'll learn your lesson. But until you do all we in Seattle can do is sadly smile and let you guys do what you gotta do. Just like the Father who knows his kid is about to do something really really stupid, but insists on doing it anyways. Some things, you just gotta learn on your own. Like: This sports team owner is about to take y'all for a big ride and it will be very very expensive.
out of this. Some bad for Seattle, some bad for OKC
and some bad for Stern...
Oklahoma: I'm going to sleep with my boyfriend because he loves me so very much, and he says I have to prove it to him.
Seattle: Well dear, that may be a mistake, because chances are he doesn't love you if he's demanding THAT.
Oklahoma: Oh yes he does Dad. You are so wrong about this!
doesn't have a team. I think that is why Olympia
didn't do anything with that idea.
My opinion is Bennett didn't meet us even halfway.
He only had one solution. A $500 million arena
paid for with public money. And he didn't even have
an option to buy the land in Renton. Maybe we could
build the arena on pontoons and let it float on
Lake Washington, like a couple of our bridges do ..
lol
"When asked what he would tell a Seattle kid who loves the Sonics, Schultz said: "I told my children, and children of those I know, that I did this obviously with concern and trepidation. But I believe strongly this new group has a commitment to staying, provided elected officials meet him halfway."
Schultz said city and state officials should realize now that the Sonics really may leave Seattle.
"If the city didn't believe we'd potentially move the team, we obviously have a group now that does have an out," Schultz said. "But that's not what [the new owners] want to do.".....
My question is, since elected officials barely even met Bennett, much less halfway, where is the bad faith? The group did commit to staying with a new arena, and there's no evidence that they wouldn't have stayed with a new arena.
The fact that most of you see no problem in how all this has been pulled off, doesn't say much about general ethics in Oklahoma. Which is sad if this is the case.
And I agree with you that Seattle's political situation is a joke, and that both papers lean so far to the left that it's difficult to take anything they write seriously. But in this case, you people have been duped by what is being reported. The city actually HAS stepped up and spent well over a #billion to fund professional sports, but once you do that it does not mean the end to it. As it turns out, it is merely the first payment. Professional sports teams owners, at least those of the Sonics, now want a new arena with LESS luxury suites, full restaurants & etc where they control 100% of the profits, they want a mere $500 mil (compared to half that in Oklahoma), and gawd only knows what else these shiesters will try to eek out of taxpayers?! Seattle finally said "You know what, we're tired of this." But it wasn't for NOT building new arenas. It was because Clay Bennett didn't want to stay in Seattle and used all these demands to "prove" Seattle would not step up. And as wise people know, if an owner does this to one city, eventually he will do this to the other city.
Oklahoma is in bed with someone who has proven to be dishonest. So I hope your lease has teeth when he turns around and does this to all of you. But judging from how excited you are about this team, and how your politicans have caved in like wet mud to all his demands, the chances of Clay Bennett taking you all for a financial ride are pretty high.
a 50/50 split between private and public money.
It sounds like Clays group has the money for that.
Perhaps Chopp would have voted for that .. But, I
can't get in his head to know for sure.
Also his proposal to build a new arena in Renton
had another major flaw. The land was already owned
by another company and this company is currently
building a shopping center/business complex/
condo complex on that land. This company stated
that they weren't interested in selling the land
to Clay.
Mayor Nichols made many requests to Clay to bargain
over a new deal to remodel Key Arena. Perhaps if
Clay would have at least listened they could have
worked something out. Clay flat out refused to
even consider a Key Arena upgrade. He wanted a new
state of the art arena paid 100% by the public or
else .....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV4QLK0HnOc
Do you think David Stern is a honest guy? Watch him pull this stunt on our city when the 'soon to be named team' relocates to Albuquerque, Reno, or Fresno.
Clay Bennett & it appears most of the Oklahoma press, is flat out lying about what is going on here in Seattle. Key Arena is not this old run-down building posters in Oklahoma like to claim it is. It is newer than over half the arenas in the NBA, and David Stern making this noise about "Seattle won't come together to build a facility" is total horse crap. Which is precisely why people in Seattle do not support this heist of our team, because most of us understand that this situation has nothing to do with facilities. It has everything to do with David Stern paying back his buddy for past favors, and the more we hear this guy mouth off about it, and try to justify what he is doing, the worse the NBA looks.
The real revenge in all this, of course, is knowing that Oklahoma now gets to deal with the strong-arm tactics of Clay Bennett. Like the little payroll tax thing he just shoved down your throats. All I can say is "get used to it" because it's the mere tip of the iceberg. You now get to deal with a known liar, who comes with a commissionar who also has been proven to be untrustworthy. The lesson being that David Stern and the NBA will have you build new arenas secured with long lease agreements, but at the same time have nero respect for leases and will do everything they can to break those leases if they feel the need. So in other words, cities, "build us $500mil arenas, and we'll treat our leases as if they are options."
Perhaps it takes 40 years for communities to wise up. The economics fail on all fronts, and thus the NBA is now has to move to smaller markets to pull these kinds of taxpayer scams off. Larger and wiser markets are "onto" their little game, and the NBA is on a dead end road. So say what you will about Seattle, but at least they finally have learned their lesson. The NBA may win this street fight but in the end they lose the war, and that should be fairly evident by the time all this is exposed.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBF_enUS246US246&q=oklahoma+city+newspaper
Will the new Ford Center be adequate for the Northwest Division? It appears Mr. Stern in the You Tube video above thought Key Arena was state of the art 12 years ago. Here's more proof for Seattle's case; bad PR for Bennett and OKC courtesy of David Stern.