Ballard’s teacher pay plan has lawmakers’ attention
OUR VIEWS State asked to help with proposal

Education is a priority to most Oklahoman's. I am one of them. I differ in the approach though. I fully support educating our children but I do not believe it is the only priority our state has. Our legislature continually throws money at education and the system keeps getting worse. And yes to a certian degree the state should be involved in peoples personal lives when it involves the abuse, neglect or exploitation of our children and our elderly. That is the law of our great state. Without law and intervention we have anarchy.

If the legislation at hand would give grants to individuals to further their education I would fully support it. Maybe vouchers to get their children out of the broken public education system and into a a privte system. But to continue to pump more and more money into a system that is broken is ludicras. It amazes me that the people have not had a full revolt against our current education system and demanded that it be fixed. Oklahoma is behind in every area of education and until that is addressed through a means other than teacher pay raises we will continue to be. We need true change not the lip service of the teachers union and a few politicians looking to stay in office.

william, Oklahoma City: I am not a teacher nor have never belonged to a union. I happen to value education and see it as a priority in this State. When I was growing up, Oklahoma taxpayers choose to give me a good public education. Now that I am a taxpayer, I beleive it is my responsiblity to do the same. If you mean supporting my own as in public education as a whole, you bet I do.

You believe the State should focus more on improving the home life of Oklahoma citizens? More government intervention into people's lives?

MBA- I can tell you are a teacher. I know you will support your own and rightfully so. Just remember that if SQ 744 passess that it will take funding away from all of the other services to Oklahomans and prioritize education. I for one do not believe that should be the case. There are many deserving people in our state. One group is the elderly. They helped build our great nation and state and are now raising many of the very children that are having such a hard time in their young life. 744 may be good for teachers but it will be bad for every other group of people who need any other governmental program. I still believe teachers are the most legislatively coddled profession. I believe in them getting fair pay and that the job they do is important but they are not the answer to all of the problems in our society as many people, like J, make them out to be. The answers to those problems start at home. So the state should focus on improving the home life and let the teachers focus on education. Societal problems can not be fixed by teachers.

William, any teacher who feels like a high priced baby sitter needs to find a new career.

And you missed my point. I realize teachers are not social workers. But teachers are expected to do more and more social work. Teachers are expected to teach character education. Teachers show many students more love and compassion than they see at home.
Do you think schools in affluent areas are good only because of the teachers/administrators? No, the parents have just as much to do with that. Most of your underperforming schools are in areas where parental involvement is nil. But yeah, it's all because of the teachers, right?

most teachers spend too much time listening to the union. if they want a raise, they should resign from the union and keep the money they give to them. maybe they could become better teachers and receive a merit raise. oh that wouldnt be fair to the lazy teachers who do nothing but complain about low pay, would it?

Dave...harder than it should be...

MBA..I read somewhere that if both SQs pass, the one with the most votes wins.

Quit trying to identify exceptional. Most teachers are exceptional and deserve more money, some are terrible. Focus on identifying and getting rid of bad teachers/administrators. Bad teachers should be fired, good teachers should keep their jobs. How hard is this?

Matt1: Good question. Passage of this question, as long as SQ 754 does not also pass, would drastically help education. Many people believe the teacher unions would be the main beneficiary which is not really true. It will be up to the individual school district to determine where the money goes as it should be. Any teacher pay increase would have to be negotiated. Here is what I would do. If SQ 744 passes, the first order of business would be to fully fund what the State has not, textbooks, health allowances, teacher pay raises, etc. No telling what the Legislature will heap on schools if SQ 744 passes. Second, set aside additional funds for growth and escalation of operational costs. Third, pass additional funds into the classroom and each individual school. Let each school decide how best to use the funds. I get real tired of school fundraisers. Fourth, address school support employee needs. These employees are typically the lowest paid school employees. In many cases, these employees work only for the insurance and have been overlooked by the Legislature for many years now. Finally, address teacher salary concerns. This is the way I would utilize the funds. If SQ 744 passes, it will be a cold day in Hades before education will see any further voluntary funding increases by the Legislature.

What SQ 744 will do is something that needed to be done for a very long time. It will cause our Legislature to actually have to look at every revenue source to see what needs to be done to maximize State revenue. They will need to look at tax credits and exemptions, reassess the tax cuts and perhaps raise taxes slightly, probably small increases in sales/use tax and income tax. At this point it is too hard to tell. But, the Legislature will have three years to do it. Maybe a better way would have been to propose a permanent one cent sales tax for education or an additional 5 or 10 mill State property tax. In any event, it needs to be a revenue source that cannot ever be touched by the Legislature. I am more of a proponent for the notion of “if you mandate it, find a revenue source to cover it”. But, this is the only vehicle schools have our there and at this point, something is better than nothing. I feel as if I have been writing novels in my posts lately.

MBA, I just have gut feeling that if this were to pass, I really wonder how much will really be resolved. It just doesn't feel right, plain old gut feeling based on so little knowledge. The OEA is very confident as their papers say "when SQ 744 passes." I have no doubt this subject will be in the paper again.

Matt1: Yep, but at least something to offset the underfunded mandates would be better than nothing.

Speaking of the "Formula", the tax increase that the SQ 744 will bring, if passed, will be disbursed on the basis of the present funding formula for school allocations.

william, Oklahoma City: It is not necessarily the "cuts", it is the unfunded and underfunded mandates heaped on schools that are hurting our schools. You mention pay raises for teachers. These raises were underfunded by the Legislature. As more and more teachers are being hired due to increases in student population, no additional money is being added to cover these raises. In addition, the money for these raises are being put through the State Education Funding Formula, which bases the amount each school district receives on the number of weighted students each district has. In no way should money for a teacher pay raise be based on the number of weighted students in a school district. Here’s an real life example.

The money given to school districts for the first $3,000 pay increase given teachers many years ago was distributed in a different manner than today. School districts received funding for this raise based on the number of teachers they had. Plain and simple. You have 100 teachers, your district received $300,000 plus the FICA. You received this allocation in a separate line item and it was easily tracked. Our Legislature has since done away with this practice by moving all pay raise funds (including the first $3,000 pay raise) into the Formula. So now, the money a district receives for teacher pay raises is based on weighted students, not the number of teachers a district has. Also, it is very easy to hide the funds when they are comingled with all the other educational funding.

You mention the Lottery money. Our Legislature used the schools’ Lottery money to fund a portion of the last $3,000 teacher pay raise they gave. Since these raises are ongoing each year, the Lottery money must be used to fund it every year. By the way, they put the Lottery money in the State Education Funding Formula also, but that’s another rant.

You mention cuts in education. Last year, the school support employee health care premiums were not fully funded. This year, schools have been taking a 5% cut in their monthly allocations just like other State agencies. The healthcare premium increases set to go in effect in January are not fully funded. These underfunded mandates amount to budget cuts. School districts must still fulfill these obligations even if the money is not provided by the Legislature. That’s the law.

I would like to see the "variety of data" that is proposed in the above article. Would eliminate a lot of guesswork and fruitless discussion since so many have already signed onto it. How about it DOK? Can you have that info pretty quick? They have it put together!

Stinkerpants-Where are all these cuts you are talking about. We have been throwing more and more money at education ever since HB1017. There is more wrong with our educational system than just funding! Teachers get a step raise every year and the legislature gives them raises when no other state employee gets one. They also get 35% of the money from the lottery. Most state emploees have had only one raise in the last 8 years. I know the teachers have had at least 4 during that time and that is in addition to the step raise they get every year!

I'll give you a real life example...5th grade teacher has 4 kids that still cannot add or subtract at this point (2nd grade pass skills). That is after 3 months into this year. No other 5th grade teachers got kids with these difficulties (and this is just some of them). Do you really think they are going to pass the 5th grade math skills test? This teacher (who got these kids because she is still going to do the best job with them amongst those teachers available and the Admin knows it) is going to take a huge hit. Just a sample of the difficulties in making this thing work.

Dave, that would be applicable if the classrooms will be equally loaded with student potentials. They won't. The Chosen One is talking on TV now about education and measurement.

Outcomes. By whatever name, education should be based on outcomes. How many students do teachers teach? How much do they get paid? What is average pay per student? Every student that fails results in teachers/administrators reduced pay by that amount. Merit pay won't work, but demerit pay will work. If you don't do your job, you don't get paid.

Me too. But I can almost guarantee that who gets what will also become 'public knowledge' by the staffs and that will also cause problems. This thing is loaded with landmines, hidden obstacles, including nepotism and extended favoritism. Ask anyone in a small-medium sized community.

I would be all for merit pay for teachers if someone would propose fair criteria for evaluation. Real problems that make it difficult include:
Poor preparation of students by prior year teachers
Poor parental involvement
Poor curriculum "experiments" by administration
Popularity contests
Variable student abilities each year

Maybe a combination of improvement in test scores, principal evaluation, and an independent evaluation from the school board based on observation.
And this BS of "they only work 8 months a year" gets tiring. The peolpe who spout this obviously don't know real, dedicated teachers.

Merit pay is just a disguise for more cuts to education.

I have to agree with william in that there are teachers that do not take work home, their classes are such that they largely do not have to work during breaks and such. The work loads vary dramatically throughout the different grade levels and class subjects taught. I cringe when I hear that the teacher is inputing grades on their computer instead of lecturing, teaching during classroom hours. I hate that DVD player and TV where my kids have watched so many movies I could spit nails. I also cringe when I hear that teachers consider themselves high priced baby-sitters. I do all I can to keep my kids out of these classrooms.

There are great teachers doing a great jobs. I'll say what I said on other threads, find out which ones these are in your school and do all you can to get your kids in those classrooms.

J- I am close to several teachers and they do only work 8 months out of the year. Figure in fall break, Christmas break, spring break and summer break and that equates to around four months off. In fact, I have several of them tell me they are nothing more than high priced baby sitters. And these are current teachers in the State of Oklahoma. You talk about kids that have terrible home lives as if that is a teachers job to correct. A teachers job is to educate our children. Leave the social work to the social workers. We have a child welfare system that is over worked and under paid also. Teachers are the the one group that the politicians cater to while ignoring the rest of our society. Senior nutrition programs just took a 7.5 million dollar cut and now many of them will go without the one hot meal a day they were getting.

Our education system is broken and it must be fixed. I am not saying teachers do not deserve a fair wage. I am just saying if you do not perform you duties to an acceptable level then you should not be rewarded with a raise. That is something you learn in business 101. You should know that since you worked in the business arena. Oh wait, you worked for a banking institution that was probably bailed out by tax payer dollars and then gave fat bonuses to their executives who bancrupted our economy. This is what is wrong with our country today. Everyone feels entitled!

comment ! My bad typing is not a teacher's fault!

Ditto on Matt's cooment, J. Norman highlighted several myths with real events. A lot of kids leave that Hell they call home and go to public schools.

J,Norman What a great post!

William: As someone who has worked in banking/finance (making about 3x what I made as an OK teacher, less hours a year, more flexibility in time off, better insurance, and a much more relaxed work environment), education, and the government sector, I can say with complete honesty and from experience that teaching was by far the most mentally and physically exhausting job I've ever had. It was not eight months of year. Shame on the teachers who taught you that faulty math!

I was paid for work from about mid-August until the end of May, but actually worked from around August 1-through the first week of June, PLUS at least 3 weeks in the summer of professional development activities. Yes, we would usually get a stipend, but in most cases it barely covered gas. During the school year, I worked from about 8 a.m. till 6:00 p.m. more often than not, and usually at least 2 hours on Sunday. Many times I worked longer. Most days, I didn't get a bathroom break, lunch was eaten standing up and/or with kids in my room, and I often took work home.
All this for just over $2,000/month (take home). Thank goodness I had no dependents I needed to have on insurance or it would have been much less, though I may have qualified for Sooner Care and/or food stamps. I say this not to complain or whine--just to give you some facts that you obviously have not had access to.

There are many great teachers, great people in the profession now (who likely have another income in the family, lol), but there are also those who should be doing something else rather than work with kids. Until the demand is such that the only the ones who really want and deserve to be there are there, things won't change. We won't see demand until there is more respect for the profession of teaching, shown in the way of pay, support, and general things that people in the private sector take for granted.

Another comment--as families disintegrate, schools are relied on to provide more and more to students. Character education, a safe environment for part of their day, two square meals a day, clothes (through the help of non-profits), school supplies. I know a student who took a backpack home on Friday's with food provided by the school. That way we knew he at least had some food over the weekend. Pizza party? I made sure he got our leftovers. Yes, he was greedy and could be sneaky and was known to steal, but who could blame a kid who was dirty, had filthy clothes, and came to school hungry regularly? This is just ONE kid. Many more deal with so much more drama and heartache in their lives. How do we teach those kids who are so worried about what they'll go home to after school? It's not all so cut and dried as "Little Johnny needs to score proficient on his assessments".

If you've never worked in a school or been close to someone who has, you really have no idea.

Pour 5 million into the two LARGEST schools in the state to "pilot" a teacher evaluation system, just to see if it will be a success?? I rarely comment on articles, but where's COMMON SENSE at the capitol? Is our nation and state NOT facing economical woes as it is? I can not understand why when you don't have money(whether it be a nation, state or individual), you can continue to spend....The government (national and state) WASTES more than I could ever dream of!

Matt, you're exactly right...A good understanding of the basics is essential...and, the assumption that youngsters are more difficult to teach is probably correct...could have something to do with attention span...teachers, for the greater part of our history, were looked upon with tremendous respect and were pillars in the community...during the 60s this began to change for reasons that are too numerous to mention.

As I said on another thread, they are completely different worlds.

Don, there should still be a rating/evaluation system in place then. I have had kids in JHS and HS with math teachers so poor, I had to teach them the subject at home in the evening. Talking to the Admin was of no value. These teachers were untouchable for reasons. Don't agree with it but that is how it is, rarely fortunately. It is a sad day when a teacher is freaking out because another doesn't do the job. Very frustrating.

And one might argue, why are they more important than the elementary teachers who have to teach the very basic skills and develop those so they have a chance to succeed in those classes of later years? I have seen several leave elementary to go to HS and JHS because it was not nearly as difficult to teach as the elementary. I have never seen a HS teacher go to elementary. I have heard several say they never would because elementary is too hard. Just an observation.

And for the record, I have no desire to start a class warfare about this! :-)

Teachers should not be considered as a group....math & science teachers should be at the very top of the pay scale as well as teachers with advanced knowledge in technology...These teachers should set the standard for what other teachers should be paid. This would be similar to how private industry manages its payroll. The best and the brightest get paid the most and those that teach study hall would get less.....interesting that coaches are usually among the highest paid...athletes are more important to us than a well educated student.

I ditched 25 days one year alone in OKC public schools and still maintained a 4.0! When it came time to shine you did what you had to do. I had some great teachers I respected and some that were not as well rounded as I was that I could correct regularly. (when I saw them tee hee).

Bob, I have seen that type of nepotism and extended favoritism. It drives me nuts too.

BTW the other William from OKC has a great idea. Pay for performance should be applied to all public professions. If you get a meets standards on your evaluation then you should get at least a cost of living adjustment. If you get an exceeds standards then you should get more. If you do poorly then you should be put on probation, given an opprotunity to improve and if you don't you should be fired. I would love to see that standard to all public employees, state and federal. Legislators should be required to be present for a specified number of days during the session, cast votes a given percentage of the time and participate in specific percentage of meetings of any committee they are assigned to. Then if they don't that information should be published for their constiuents to see so they can be voted out of office.

MBA, What I liked about the articles were the "issues" that must be addressed in order to be successful. A great many people think this is not that difficult to institute. Whereas it is full of landmines and hidden obstacles. Good to hear about updated "results"...thanks.

We need better educators. To get better educators, teaching has to become a better-paying career. Some of our current educators are great. Some are just people who never 'left school'. I live outside the small town where I graduated high school. This small town has SEVERAL examples of locals who received their teaching degree to become permanent non-performers in our local school, waiting for their retirement years. When my children routinely correct their teachers in the classroom, something is wrong. To the critics, my father retired from the school system, I grew up a teacher's kid.

I am so sick of hearing about teachers deserve more money and more benefits. They only work about 8 months out of the year. Our students are being passed through school without being able to read or do basic math and the teachers want a raise. They will only deserve a raise when they have to work 12 months out of the year like everyone else and actualy improve test scores for our children. This profession has the biggest bunch of coddled cry babies I have ever seen in my life. Pay for performance is a good idea and for those teachers that don't perform, good bye!

No wonder our children grow up thinking they are entitled to everything. The school system teachers them that crap. If you can't make the grade we will pass you through, If you can't teach your students you get a raise anyway. No teacher, student or anyone else is entitled to anything. They have to earn it.

Matt1: Interesting article but a couple of major flaws in it. First, comparing public education to the private sector, which it does on many occasions, is comparing apples to oranges. A teacher can't pick and choose students. Teachers are not dealing with manufactured products or measureable services, but with human beings.

Second, nowhere does the article mention funding. It mentions bonuses, advancing faster up the pay scales, etc. but no funding concerns. In Denver, voters passed a sales tax in 2004 to pay for merit pay. That program has fallen upon hard times now. Would Oklahoma voters be willing to pass a statewide sales tax to pay for merit pay?

Third, the article was written in 2001. What has happened since then? Cincinnati has since scrapped its merit pay program in 2002. It was voted out by a 95% majority. Teachers called it, "Two years later, a 95 percent majority voted it out. They called it punitive, inconsistent and underfunded..". There are still lots of issues with merit pay.

Another excellent article...
http://www.city-journal.org/html/11_3_why_merit_pay.html

"One thing that will not work, as Cramer observes, is a small pilot program, later to be expanded, since this would almost inevitably incur resentment toward those few teachers selected to participate or to be given awards. Cramer concludes with the following timely caveat: "Unless you plan carefully and include your entire teaching corps in an evaluation plan that it helps develop, your merit pay plan is doomed to failure." "

http://www.ericdigests.org/pre-922/merit.htm

Merit pay = "politics pay" or "popularity pay". It also equals a funding cut. Which is what the publishers want, unless they can get tax money for their ball team.

I'm torn! If I was a teacher I'm not sure I would want to be paid based upon what is learned or not learned in the classroom. This seems to put the whole burden upon the teachers. What about the student's and parent's responsibility? The parent's roll in education is extremely important and most of them don't get that. Also, If we're going to pay teachers with this type of structure, maybe we should consider paying others the same way. Like our government officials and administration, police and firemen, etc . . . So, if you don't get that bill passed, you don't get paid. If you don't get that crook caught or the house fire put out, you don't get paid . . . If you don't get rid of all of the drug dealers, bank robbers, murderers, rapists, etc . . . you don't get paid! If all you do is sit around at the state capitol and draw a pay check, but you never propose effective bills and laws that will actually help the people of this state, you get $0!

Which education experts know how all the variables impact the test scores. How much does the teacher control? How much is because of the subject matter (some are more popular)? How much is because of the school administration? How much is because of the school board? How much is because of the institutions that taught the teachers? How much is due to flawed tests or scoring? Does the results of one school year determine a trend: will you extrapolate from one data point to where you want to go? etc.

I believe in merit pay, but you must be able to determine what is meritorius!

I can say with almost complete confidence that certain teachers will be set up with certain types of students to ensure that they will qualify for merit pay. If this evaluation is done on an individual basis instead of grade level, the relationships between teachers will deteriorate badly as it will be every person for him/herself. This has the real potential to become very adversarial between staff members. I do recall reading some time back (couple of years) this very thing happened elsewhere but memory does not recall where exactly, thinking west coast state. It will be interesting, to say the least. I would expect the "trial" will be so closely monitored that certain inequities might be controlled that in a widespread application, will run free.

So the Legislature will need to set aside $5 million to assist OKCPS and TPS implement merit pay. Here are some issues I have. First, OKCPS and TPS already spend and receive more General Fund (operating funds), per pupil, than most other school districts in the State, as much as several thousand dollars per pupil more than say an Edmond, Mustang, Choctaw or Yukon school district. OKC and TPS already have the means to do this.

To implement merit pay, the whole salary structure and minimum teacher pay schedules would have to be changed. There is a little known law that states a teacher cannot make less than they did the previous year unless their duties change. Are you going to keep the State minimums and pay merit bonuses on top of that? If so, then you are talking about a huge chunk of additional money that will be needed. Where will this come from? As Mr. G mentions, this will more than likely become another woefully underfunded mandate. The bottom line is, with all the unfunded and underfunded mandates already heaped on schools, our Legislature needs to fully fund these first before they attempt to implement any other programs.

Another issue I see is that teaching, as a whole, may suffer. What are you going to base these merit pay bonuses on? Test scores? I have already heard many times that teachers teach to the tests, not as they taught many years ago. If my paycheck is going to be based on a test outcome, I would be hard pressed not to teach toward the tests. There are many other concerns I have with merit pay; too numerous to list here, so I will stop now.

Merit pay only prrovides incentives for the lower performing teachers. The ones whose studnets consistently score at the top of the ratings have nowhere to go but down.

Merit pay- talk about opening a big ole can of worms. Why not give teachers the raise that was promised cheepskates. They aren't in it for the $ anyway. Teachers are there because it's a calling. You seen their pay stub. Kills all the wingnuts in this redneck joint that any type of labor organization still exists. That's the rub. Why this pathetic rag is constantly savaging public schools.