Bitter beer battle brews
Bitter beer battle brews in state

By John Estus
Published: February 25, 2008

State alcohol distributors are fussing about who's responsible for preventing real-life cases of bitter beer face.

The question is whether some beer distributors should have to refrigerate beer before sending it to retailers, check liquor store shelves for expired bottles and clean beer keg tap lines in bars and restaurants.


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The taste is at stake if quality control isn't done right.

"It'll taste real skunky,” said Brett Robinson, president of the Oklahoma Malt Beverage Association and a lobbyist for alcohol distributors.

That was the ruse behind past popular Keystone Light television commercials — the ones that made "bitter beer face” a household term.

But it's no joke for state beer distributors who await a ruling from the Alcoholic Beverage Laws Enforcement Commission regarding who's responsible for quality control of strong beer.

Strong beer is sold in liquor stores and has a higher alcohol content than beer sold in grocery stores.

Three strong-beer distributors have asked the ABLE Commission to toss out a rule that allows strong beer manufacturers to tell them what quality control measures they should practice when dealing with their beers.

State's laws are unique
The state's quality-control requirements for low-point beer, which Robinson said makes up 90 to 95 percent of the state's beer market, are stricter than for strong beer.

Many strong-beer distributors say quality control is important in Oklahoma because liquor stores here can't refrigerate strong beer.

But other strong-beer distributors claim state law forbids beer manufacturers from requiring distributors to follow quality control guidelines that aren't required by the state.

"We don't feel like it is a quality-control issue,” said Tad Shadid, manager of Oklahoma City-based Eagle Brand Beers, one of the strong-beer distributors that petitioned ABLE. The issue is who is responsible for doing what work under our state laws and statutes, he said.

In most other states, distributors are responsible for quality control. National beer industry observers said Oklahoma is unique because it is among only five states selling low point beer, or beer containing 3.2 percent alcohol by mass.

"Beer is a perishable product. It is a product that over time does lose some of its taste and some of its characteristics and some of its flavor if it's not controlled in an appropriate way,” said Craig Purser, president of the National Beer Wholesalers Association.

Who's responsible?
Purser said everyone in the alcohol industry should be concerned with the quality of the products they sell because a bad-tasting drink that's not up to par will cause consumers to drink something else next time.

Robinson's association represents 18 state beer distributors, some who sell strong beer and some who don't. It doesn't represent the ones who petitioned ABLE.

"My guys have invested the money in refrigerated warehouses and refrigerated trucks and are used to cleaning tap lines,” and others haven't, he said.

On any given day, about half a million cases of strong and low-point beer sit stacked to the ceiling in the 100,000 square feet of refrigerated warehouse space at Premium Beers of Oklahoma in Oklahoma City.

It was about 46 degrees in the warehouse Wednesday morning while employees put together the next day's orders. Low-point beer and strong beer kegs in the warehouse's keg cooler are kept a little colder.

Shadid said while the Eagle Brands warehouse isn't refrigerated, the beers kept in the air-conditioned, 153,000 square foot room aren't exposed to too much heat because the room never gets above 75 degrees. Eagle Brands does not distribute low-point beer.

The part of the state's alcohol law that the petitioners want stricken says strong beer manufacturers can establish quality control guidelines if it is "necessary for the preservation of the product, health, or public safety and welfare.” Those guidelines include refrigeration.

ABLE commissioners heard arguments from both sides in a hearing this month. Commissioners could vote on the petition at their next meeting March 21. ABLE Director Keith Burt declined comment.


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Brenda, I'll respond as soon as I can, if you are still reading these posts.
Kurt, Midtown OKC - Mar 4, 2008 4:08 PM
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Kurt, so explain the true context of Proverbs 20:1, which is the only scripture that I've listed. And also, the taboo I have personally in re to drinking is from personal experience, after risking & losing a lot, including a fair amount dignity and some self respect, so explain why I should put this one aside???
Brenda, oklahoma - Feb 29, 2008 12:30 PM
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I would think you would have to be smart enough to make a higher income. I don't know many stupid people who make a higher income. Income is subjective. If I made $40,000 I would think $150,000 was higher income and the $150,000 would think the person making $500,000 was higher income. My msg. was directed toward Danzig.
Thoughtful, Oklahoma City - Feb 27, 2008 3:06 PM
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Sorry to say, but having a higher income than someone else doesn't prove anything. Brenda: I encourage you to overcome your taboos, and understand verses in context.
Kurt, Midtown OKC - Feb 27, 2008 12:55 PM
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That should have been...You may want.
Thoughtful, Oklahoma City - Feb 27, 2008 9:22 AM
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One last thing Danzig. I'll will bet my income and holdings are far above yours.
Thoughtful, Oklahoma City - Feb 27, 2008 9:16 AM
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Danzig,
You are a jerk. Is that plain enough? I happen to have a IQ of 148 far, far above average. Also, I am not rude enough to critique informal posts. My may want to develop the habit of reading Miss Manners.
Thoughtful, Oklahoma City - Feb 27, 2008 9:15 AM
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Paris, your grammar is terrible. You need to have a dictionary and thesaurus handy when posting.
Joe, Oklahoma City - Feb 26, 2008 4:35 PM
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Brenda, I received that. Thank you and same to you.
Thoughtful, Oklahoma City - Feb 26, 2008 4:02 PM
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Paris: Point taken. God bless!
Brenda, oklahoma - Feb 26, 2008 3:40 PM
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Brenda, alcoholism played a role in my divorce. However, not the entire reason. My reasons for saying a verse was used to your advantage is because you want to make a point because you believe drinking alcohol is wrong. I do not believe this. At a point in my life I would have said it was. It is the abuse of drink that is wrong. The bible does not say drinking is wrong, it says the abuse is.
Thoughtful, Oklahoma City - Feb 26, 2008 3:19 PM
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I simply stated a verse out of the Bible (Proverbs 20:1), it's His words, not mine! Do you want to tell Him that He's wrong? I myself didn't condemn anyone, nor would I want to. How's this being used to my own advantage? Paris, did your previous marriage break-up because of alcoholism? Just asking. Forgive me, it's not really my business.
Brenda, oklahoma - Feb 26, 2008 3:02 PM
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I don't drink and my husband does not drink. I don't have a problem with someone who does have a drink or two as long as they don't get drunk. I was married to a alcholic and my father was. I do not view a drink as a sin. I do not however like the bible quoted to me by some who use it to there own advantage. I have been there and done that. I quoted every passage to my ex that had do with liquor being bad and he came right back at me with the positive side. I learned there is a passage for about evey point you want to make and a equal one for the other side.
Thoughtful, Oklahoma City - Feb 26, 2008 2:11 PM
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding." (Rom. 14:17-19)---Romans 14 speaks of some other things too. Paris, what you are referring to is probably the verses about passing judgement on certain behaviors, but we must remember that it swings both ways. While others may not pass judgement on people for "disputable matters" it's also not ok to, for instance, flaunt your drinking in front of someone that thinks it is wrong. There are some fellow believers I know that if I were to go out and eat somewhere with them, I wouldn't order a beer, so as to avoid the whole conflict and not offend them. Just wanted to clarify that.
Kurt, Midtown OKC - Feb 26, 2008 1:51 PM
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding." (Rom. 14:17-19)---Romans 14 speaks of some other things too. Paris, what you are referring to is probably the verses about passing judgement on certain behaviors, but we must remember that it swings both ways. While others may not pass judgement on people for "disputable matters" it's also not ok to, for instance, flaunt your drinking in front of someone that thinks it is wrong. There are some fellow believers I know that if I were to go out and eat somewhere with them, I wouldn't order a beer, so as to avoid the whole conflict and not offend them. Just wanted to clarify that.
Kurt, Midtown OKC - Feb 26, 2008 1:49 PM
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Romans 14 may be the passage they should read.
Thoughtful, Oklahoma City - Feb 26, 2008 11:02 AM
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Kurt, you are so right. You have done your homework. However, I fear the ones who should know these things have quit reading.
Thoughtful, Oklahoma City - Feb 26, 2008 10:59 AM
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Also, just to clarify, there is nothing wrong with those who abstain, as long as they don't condemn other for it. Or if you are taking a Nazerite Vow :)
Kurt, Midtown OKC - Feb 26, 2008 10:41 AM
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Also, after working 10+ years in the medical field I have yet to see someone explode. I ask my neighbor, a physician and he may still be laughing. Your sin is in judging your fellow man. Now that is a sin. Try reading Romans.
Thoughtful, Oklahoma City - Feb 26, 2008 10:40 AM
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Gosh. From a Christian standpoint, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with alchohol, just the abuse of. Hopefully someday people in this state will get over the stupid, compltely unbased taboos they have. ---"Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do." (Ecl. 9:7) "But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, 'The old is good.'" (Luke 5:38-39) Paul even instructs Timothy to drink wine "(No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)" (1 Tim. 5:23) "You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate,that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man," (Ps. 104:14-15) "Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty,and your vats will be bursting with wine." (Prv. 3:9-11) --- Not to mention Jesus turned water to wine...and made MORE when they ran out. Some people try to argue that it was "just grape juice" Sorry...but grape juice doesn't burst wineskins, nor was grape juice even invented until Prohibition, and then it was made as an alternative for Communion Wine. Also, you teetotalers might want to read some Church History. As a huge beer connoisessur, here's to hoping this state's stupid liquor laws finally come to an end and we can move out of a truly wrong and outdated era.
Kurt, Midtown OKC - Feb 26, 2008 10:39 AM
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This is what turns me off on fundimental religion. There is no where in this bible that says you will go to Hell for drinking. Read it all. The bible neither condems nor promotes. Just remember Jesus turned water to wine at the wedding of Cana. Read Tim 5:13,Deut. 14:22, Hos. 2:8, Isa. 25:6, John 2:10. etc. Jesus did not abstain. John the Baptist did. Are you following John the Baptist or Jesus?
Thoughtful, Oklahoma City - Feb 26, 2008 10:37 AM
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Floyd, you speak the truth. The liquor distribution business is controlled by three families in this state (all Lebanese). Has been for a long time. The laws are not set up for our morals, health, welfare, safety, etc. the laws and ABLE exist to protect the profits of these wholesalers. ABLE should be disbanded and the entire liquor industry needs to be deregulated. I can see no real legitimate governmental goal justifying the existence of ABLE. That entity exists to discourage commerce, ensure that our alcohol flows through certain middle-men and to protect the profits of the wholesalers. You want smaller government? ABLE is a good place to start.
Kevin, Oklahoma City - Feb 26, 2008 9:31 AM
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I was only relaying story that was provided to me about excessive uncontrolled bleeding due to cirrhosis of the liver. How does that make me a nut job? If you can keep the drinking moderate, then good for you, but to abstain altogether is better. I tell my own children this. I don't consider myself a "nut job" but a caring mother, because I have experienced & witnessed terrible things through alcohol consumption. Should I be sorry if I care?
Brenda, oklahoma - Feb 26, 2008 9:31 AM
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I was only relaying story that was provided to me about excessive uncontrolled bleeding due to cirrhosis of the liver. How does that make me a nut job? If you can keep the drinking moderate, then good for you, but to abstain altogether is better. I tell my own children this. I don't consider myself a "nut job" but a caring mother, because I have experienced & witnessed terrible things through alcohol consumption. Should I be sorry if I care?
Brenda, oklahoma - Feb 26, 2008 9:31 AM
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The point is not if drinking or drunkenness is advisable, it's whether Oklahoma's laws regarding the regulation of booze are wise. Obviously not..Distributorship's are one of the protected classes of business. Like abstract offices, real estate agents, and others that lean on the legislature with lobbyists and campaign cash to keep their sweet deal going.
Floyd R, Purtle - Feb 26, 2008 6:17 AM
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This subject sure brought out the nut jobs!! Geez, I have a few relatives that died of cirrhosis but they never exploded??? I bet half of these people speak in tongues & hop the pews. A beer is a beer this article doesn't mention anyone being an alchoholic or taking anything to the extreme. Self control should solve your dilemma Brenda.
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Feb 25, 2008 8:31 PM
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All low point beer products sold in Oklahoma are brewed at 3.2% alcohol by weight, not below 3.2. Donnie from Yukon is right -- when you convert 4.1% alcohol by volume Bud Ice Light for example to alcohol by weight, the result is 3.3% alcohol by weight -- not that much more than 3.2. Multiply ABV by .08 to get ABW. Outlaw -- Chimay is definitely strong beer -- probably north of 6% ABV.
Cooper, Oklahoma City - Feb 25, 2008 7:34 PM
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Not in Oklahoma Donnie, Budweiser products are all below 3.2% alcohol. Budweiser doesn't ship it's full strength beer to our state, so try again. I get your point though, the term 6 point is overused to mean beer in excess of the 3.2% threshold....What is Chamay these days??
Outlaw, Edmond - Feb 25, 2008 4:47 PM
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ALCOHOL BY VOLUME:
5.0% Budweiser
5.0% Bud Dry
4.2% Bud Light
5.5% Bud Ice
4.1% Bud Ice Light
HMMMMMMMMM NO "6 POINT"
Donnie, YUKON - Feb 25, 2008 4:14 PM
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Let me correct my statement: My first cousin, who is an RN, said some of the worst deaths that she has ever witnessed as a nurse in the ICU were when alcoholics bled & died explosively because of uncontrollable bleeding due to cirrosis of the liver, the blood ended up on walls, floors, etc. All of my 3 aunts were nurses, and have several cousins who are RN's....I believe their stories, I've witnessed seeing my 35 year old cousin die of uncontrollable bleeding. She left 3 young children who had to be sent to foster care (to other relatives). It can lead to a lot of hardship. Please watch "Intervention"....I've learned a lot from this show & feel so sorry for all involved, especially children. Habits all start somewhere, even from little sips.
Brenda, oklahoma - Feb 25, 2008 4:03 PM
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So Brenda, I've never heard of exploding alcoholics, sounds a little fishy to me. Sounds like your first cousin is pulling your leg, you're not gullible are you?
Outlaw, Edmond - Feb 25, 2008 3:53 PM
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Brenda, I recognize your caring nature. As I mentioned, I almost lost it all due to alcohol. I was fortunate enough to get another chance and I now have a wonderful life without alcohol.
Joe, Oklahoma City - Feb 25, 2008 3:44 PM
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Start celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles.Deuteronomy 14:26-"And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever the soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink..." Alcohol doesn't satisfy me so for me the key word is moderation if at all. A tiny taste on Passover Communion is plenty for me.
Floyd, Oklahoma City - Feb 25, 2008 3:38 PM
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Thank you to the folks who really understand what I'm trying to convey. Several of my family & friends have died from alcoholism. My first cousin is an RN and she said some of the most horrible deaths were caused when an alcoholic explodes blood onto walls, floors, out of almost every orifice there is on the body. When I state/quote the Bible, it's not out of horrible spite of drinkers, but it's out of caring. I'm sorry if you don't comprend this or understand. Please ask what good comes out of drinking and add up what's been lost from it?
Brenda, oklahoma - Feb 25, 2008 3:35 PM
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BTW David from Yukon, You're a liar! What Proverbs 16:31 really says is : "The hoary head is a crown of glory, if it be found in the way of righteousness."
Larry, Stringtown - Feb 25, 2008 2:59 PM
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If Jesus was going to turn some water into beer i bet it would be the good stuff, not the watered down BS. No offense Rev but there are a lot of things in the bible that are sins, and if you think that drinking is one of them then I'm sorry to say that you'll never live up to the standard that you subscribe to. See you in hell!
Outlaw, Edmond - Feb 25, 2008 2:52 PM
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Hey, David of Yukon, if you're going to try to slander the Savior by calling him a "drunk" don't mislead people by putting a scripture reference in your post that speaks to crucifixion, a practice that wasn't around when Proverbs was written by your namesake.
Andy, Oklahoma City - Feb 25, 2008 2:44 PM
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I don't see anything wrong with having a drink as long as you refrain from taking it to a drunken state. I for one can no longer drink. I took it to that next level every time I drank and ended up a very sick person. I drank heavily for ten years and lost almost everything because of it. This was all my choice and I paid the consequences for it. I'm not going to go around telling people what they should or shouldn't do. The only thing I can recommend is to keep it in check. By the way, I got my life back after getting sober.
Joe, Oklahoma City - Feb 25, 2008 2:39 PM
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And I might add:
Proverbs 23:29 ¶ Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
Proverbs 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Proverbs 23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
Proverbs 23:33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
Proverbs 23:34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
Proverbs 23:35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
Proverbs 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

Isaiah 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
Hosea 4:11 Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Larry, Stringtown - Feb 25, 2008 2:30 PM
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Good posts Ronnie from wilburton and Brenda.
Larry, Stringtown - Feb 25, 2008 2:24 PM
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I normally would never indulge in responding or writing but I feel as an ordained Minister I must. Many will argue that alcohol is not a sin,,,,and they will interpret the bible many different ways to justify their own actions. I for one believe this....maybe your right and I am wrong and that drinking is not a sin, however by drinking I ruin my testimony and credibility as a christian,,,yes their are churches that don't frown upon it,,,I only hope they are right. One day we will be judged and I for one don't want to risk eternity for a few lousy drinks. Believe what you will but is it really worth it??? The lady earlier was accused of being judgemental for merely quoting the bible then giving her opinion about how alcohol does impair the mind and cause accidents. Instead of attacking her I applaud her courage for standing up for what she believes in and doing it without judging but stating facts. My suggestion is for all that read this before you judge me for my comments to sit down and judge yourself and ask one question,,,,is alcohol really worth the risk of your testimony and salvation. If anyone would like to talk (rationally) further with me on this topic please let me know and I will be glad to discuss it. Sincerely,
Rev.Davis
Ronnie, Wilburton - Feb 25, 2008 1:56 PM
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I am laughing here....Reminds me of my ex. I would read the bible and pick out every thing against drinking and he would go through it and pick out all of the things for it. Now in retrospect I can see that race is about even. People only see their side of anything, myself included. Funny since I got away from the Baptist guilt trip I am a lot happier. Chose another religion and guess what? We dance, sing and even have a drink or two. Only the over indulgence is frowned upon. I am not going to Hell because I have a beer or a margarita. Some how everyone hones in on the drinking issue in the bible and forgets about gluttony. Brenda are you heavy? Brenda not every religion believes a social drink or two is wrong. You better go back and read that bible some more. Guess you would have rejected Jesus because he drank and made wine?
Thoughtful, Oklahoma City - Feb 25, 2008 1:21 PM
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Wow Brenda, people like you is why I quit going to church. No joke. Close minded, judging, busy body, and the list could go on when I describe people like you. If there is a God, the bible claims that he gave us free will. Who are you to tell others that they are wrong, especially since they have not asked you to be their accountability partner?

You should really keep this in mind, because most of the people that read this aren't the type to go out and get wasted every night. We come home, have a few beers after work, and relax.
Elizabeth, Norman - Feb 25, 2008 12:51 PM
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Why should we follow laws that were made for a religious guidlines we don't believe in? Jesus was a drunk anyway thats why the romans nailed him up... For he dranketh in excess so he was pinned to the cross like a fool(Proverbs 16:31)
david, yukon - Feb 25, 2008 12:32 PM
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Excuse me chuck, I must have took a swig of your Kool-aid... I meant to say if you think organized religion DOESN'T have a hand in this...
David, Edmond - Feb 25, 2008 11:30 AM
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"Wine is a mocker, Srong drink is a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise" Proverbs 20:1
Alcohol consumption does more damage than tobacco and know several people who committed horrible acts because of alcohol, I'm sure you do too.
Brenda, oklahoma - Feb 25, 2008 11:12 AM
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Please take all measures possible & do not screw up the taste of my beer !!!!! Rebecca this is pretty much what is talked about at the AA meetings at least in the parking lot , a friend of mine only attends because it's a social thing & they have a few after the meeting !!!!
Jimmy, Sandy Shores - Feb 25, 2008 10:43 AM
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i know - why don't u all go find an AA meeting & discuss how fantastic 6.0 beer is there? lol
Cari, Yukon - Feb 25, 2008 10:31 AM
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I've always wondered why OK had only 3.2 beer. One of only five states to have this? Sounds sorta like the tattoo deal. I honestly didn't take the time to understand all the gobbledee gook this article was saying. I'm a CPA and used to reading intricate, legal CRAP - but didn't really care to read the rationale for our current liquor laws. There is no rationale! I do, however, agree that ABLE should be reorganized. Competition needs to be allowed to take root. Oh, if you don't think religion plays into the liquor laws, you're asleep at the wheel. And to Mr. Bigglesworth (gay?), may I recommend a nice chilled Tecate with a fresh-squeezed 1/4 slice of lime and salted rim? Very refreshing and very drinkable.
Chris, Jones - Feb 25, 2008 10:22 AM
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Reading this article just makes me thirsty for a nice cold one. It's tastes so good when it touches your lips.
MrBigglesworth, Sweetwater - Feb 25, 2008 9:30 AM
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Dave, Edmond - This is a battle between the brewers, distributors, and the State. If you think the Baptist are anywhere near this one...you're an idiot!
Charles, Oklahoma City - Feb 25, 2008 9:17 AM
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No, what Oklahoma needs is to have ABLE dismantled. We need to have our laws requiring people to be 21 to buy alcohol, and that's it. What need is there to have liquor regulation? How am I protected any better when the grocery store can't carry whiskey and the beer and wine manufacturers have to go through an intermediary (raising the cost for all of us) in delivering their products to the Oklahoma market? What is the governmental goal here? I don't see anything other than economic protectionism of three very rich, very powerful liquor wholesalers. This cartel needs to be shut down.
Kevin, Oklahoma City - Feb 25, 2008 9:02 AM
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Oklahoma needs a Reinheitsgebot.
Brett, Oklahoma City - Feb 25, 2008 8:56 AM
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Paul, it's because we live in the bible belt. The Baptists are too busy bible thumping and telling us we're all going to hell by partaking in the evil libations! Meanwhile, they sneak into the neighboring town and hit the liquor store to get the good stuff!
David, Edmond - Feb 25, 2008 8:19 AM
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The liquor wholesale lobby is extremely powerful, folks. The entire state's liquor supply is controlled by three families. The state's liquor laws exist to protect them, not us.
Kevin, Oklahoma City - Feb 25, 2008 6:43 AM
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I agree and I refuse to buy 3.2 beer in Oklahoma.
G, Oklahoma City - Feb 25, 2008 5:59 AM
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Why is there still "low point" beer here anyway? One of these days this state might come out of the dark ages....
paul, yukon - Feb 25, 2008 3:44 AM
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