Fate of Sonics rests with judge
The team will learn Wednesday whether it can move to Oklahoma City this year.
Fate of Sonics rests with judge

By Chris Casteel
Published: June 27, 2008

SEATTLEU.S. District Judge Marsha Pechman will announce Wednesday whether the SuperSonics can move to Oklahoma City this year or must fulfill the last two years of a lease the NBA team has with a city-controlled arena.

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After a final day of testimony and closing arguments in the trial over the Sonics — a day in which the judge engaged lawyers on both sides over critical questions in the case — Pechman said Thursday she was "not going to open my mouth and decide this case today” but would post it publicly at 6 p.m. CDT Wednesday.

"So stay tuned,” she said.

Pechman asked few questions of witnesses in the first five days of the trial but posed several on Thursday to attorneys for the city of Seattle and the Oklahoma City-based owners of the Sonics, showing in the process that she is considering her approach to many of the arguments made here in federal court.

She wanted to know, among other things, whether fan loyalty was relevant to her decision; whether the city would in fact get a "bad bargain” financially if the team is forced to stay; whether the city had any obligation to upgrade KeyArena to keep it viable as an NBA venue; and whether she might have to act as a referee to solve future disputes between the city and team if she makes the team honor the lease.

Paul Lawrence, the lead trial attorney for the city, which sued the Sonics last fall to keep the team in Seattle through the 2009-2010 season, said Pechman must order "specific performance” of the lease — that is, make the team play all of its home games at KeyArena for the next two seasons — because there's no adequate financial alternative. A dollar figure can't be put on the loss to the city, he said, because the 41-year-old franchise brings so many benefits beyond the lease payments.

The Sonics' owners, Lawrence said, were asking the judge to say any sports team could break a lease if a better deal came along — in this case, a deal to move to the Ford Center in Oklahoma City.

"They should not come into this court and ask for your help in making more profits and deny the citizens of Seattle the benefits” of having the team, Lawrence said.

But Brad Keller, the lead attorney for the owners, told the judge she should end the dysfunction surrounding the Sonics here — the lease that is at the root of the team's financial struggles and the "toxic” relationships between the owners and the city, between principal owner Clay Bennett and the fans, and between the owners and a group of local businessmen who want to keep the team in Seattle.

"Enough is enough,” Keller said. "The marriage is broken. Please stop the bleeding.”

Keller also said the city was using the lawsuit to make the Sonics stay and endure financial losses that would force the owners to sell the team; he said the judge shouldn't be a "tool” for the city in its mission.

"The only way the city can continue to try to force its tenant to sell is if you force the bleeding,” Keller told the judge.

Pechman asked questions of both lawyers about the unusual circumstances surrounding the city's law firm, K&L Gates, representing the city in the case while some attorneys with the firm, including former U.S. Sen. Slade Gorton, were also working on a plan with a potential local ownership group to buy the Sonics and help finance renovations of the arena.

Gorton's name is at the center of the owners' allegation that the city wants to keep the Sonics here to force a sale. Gorton was heavily involved in discussions with the businessmen, including Microsoft Corp. chief Steve Ballmer, about a "poisoned well” strategy that made reference to keeping the Oklahoma City owners tied up in litigation and driving a "wedge” between the owners and the NBA.

During his closing argument, Keller showed a picture aimed at mocking K&L Gates for representing the city in this litigation and, simultaneously, representing local businessmen who were putting together a plan to buy the team; the picture showed a brain divided in half with one of the firm's interests on each side, and Keller questioned whether it was credible to believe that the interests could be kept separate.

Lawrence said he couldn't account for Gorton's actions, which he characterized as a "major misstep” but that the court shouldn't hold the city responsible.

Pechman asked Lawrence whether she should order the city to sever its ties with K&L Gates if she forces the team to stay. Lawrence said the firm had no "vested interest” to keep representing the city and that the city attorney's office could handle the rest if the team is forced to stay.

Pechman told Keller, the owners' attorney, that litigation can be "unpleasant and embarrassing” but asked if the city didn't have the right to sue the owners to enforce the lease.

Keller said the city had the right if enforcing the lease was its sole purpose; but he said it didn't have the right to use the lease as a way of forcing the team to sell and had crossed over from a proper purpose to an improper purpose.

Will winning be bad bargain?
The judge noted that the city still owes about $35 million on the bonds issued in 1994 to renovate KeyArena and asked if the owners had any obligation to pay them off. Keller said the team's only obligations were to make the lease payments and give the city a share of suite sales and some other more minor revenue streams.

The judge said she knew Bennett had made a $26 million offer to the city last year to leave before the lease expired. The city declined the offer and now, would be left to pay off the bonds even if the team is forced to stay for two years.

"Is it up to me to tell the city leadership, ‘You're asking for a bad bargain'?” the judge said. "It's not up to me, is it?”

Keller told the judge that the offer from Bennett was designed to pay the lease and help pay off the bonds.

"That wasn't lost on me, Mr. Keller,” the judge said.

Asked whether the city could actually lose financially by winning this case, Deputy Mayor Tim Ceis said at a press briefing after the trial ended that the case was never about money, that it was about holding the Sonics to the deal made at KeyArena and providing the city with the intangible benefits brought by the team.

Sophisticated people
During Lawrence's arguments, Pechman asked whether the city, as part of the lease, had a reciprocal agreement with the team to maintain KeyArena as a viable NBA arena. Several witnesses testified last week in the trial that the arena no longer meets NBA standards and some said the arena's shortcomings were part of the reason the Sonics couldn't make a profit.

Lawrence said the city had no responsibility under the 15-year lease to upgrade KeyArena continually; he said the city had the obligation to maintain it and, halfway through the lease, to "freshen it up” and that the city met its obligations. He said the Ford Center in Oklahoma City won't be up to NBA standards until $100 million worth of improvements, approved by city voters, are completed.

"There's nothing in the lease that says you get to leave because time ages a facility,” Lawrence argued.

Pechman also expressed concern that if she forced the Sonics to play another two years at KeyArena, she would be called on to referee disputes between parties that, the trial has shown, have not been amicable.

"Are we going to have ongoing allegations that the city is undermining its tenant” by trying to lock in financial losses for the owners, or criticizing them to the NBA or "leaking their secrets?” Pechman said.

Lawrence said that Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels and Bennett had both testified that they wouldn't call each other names or refuse to work together.

"I'd like to know how I can be assured we're not going to be back here with these” disputes, she said.

Lawrence said the owners and city officials were sophisticated people, to which Pechman responded: "Let's talk about just how sophisticated they are.”

She asked whether it was true Nickels refused to return a phone call from Bennett last July, when Bennett wanted to discuss a way out of the lease.

It wasn't clear from Lawrence's answer whether the mayor did return the phone call, but he said the mayor had told Bennett previously that he expected the team to honor the lease.

"It's not real sophisticated if they both go to their own corners and don't talk to each other, right?” she said.

Do the fans matter?
The owners' attorneys have argued that if the team is forced to stay in Seattle, the judge would have to remain in some supervisory role to mediate disputes. Under the law, that can be a reason for a judge not to order someone to honor a contract and just pay their way out of it.

The owners' attorneys contend that a price can be computed for what the Sonics would owe the city for the next two years, but the city contends that no price can be put on a 41-year-old franchise that brings intangible benefits, including civic pride.

Lawrence argued that the fans have a "sentimental connection” to the team that can't be valued in dollars.

But Pechman said the fans aren't a party to the lease and that emotions felt by individuals don't go to the core landlord-tenant dispute.

Lawrence said the city had made a public policy decision to renovate KeyArena in 1994 to keep the Sonics in Seattle and that public policy decision was influenced by the fans.


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Brent, I take it you are responding to my posts from the "Judge bars deputy mayor's testimony in Sonics trial" thread? If not, my responses there explain why the Ford tax, among others, was indeed a tax increase (even though the tax rate remains SEEMINGLY unchanged). Yes, we can still agree to disagree on that. :)
Larry, Oklahoma City - Jul 1, 2008 1:12 AM
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Said it before and will say it again: "the apathy of the voters, is well, pathetic"
Larry, Oklahoma City - Jun 30, 2008 11:16 PM
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Thanks Bill, I did find that interesting and had run across the info recently (think I was refuting something of Jill's at the time).
Larry, Oklahoma City - Jun 30, 2008 11:15 PM
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Brent, I have no problem with agreeing to disagree. :-) And I agree with the rest of your post (especially the last two sentences)
Larry, Oklahoma City - Jun 30, 2008 11:14 PM
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Brent wrote: "I disagree on the practicality of the 51% to qualify point though while interesting I fear we would get even less done than we do now" That may very well be true but it might not be a bad thing. Just as our Legislature is only in session a few months out of the year (but get full time pay for part time work), it forces them to concentrate on important issues (in theory) and get those things done. Considering the damage they somehow seem to do in just a few months, imagine how much they could inflict if they were there year-round. LOL. Similar to changing the election rules. If they knew they had to get the majority of the residents (true "majority rules") for anything to pass, they would work a lot harder at it. That might mean that the spin, half-truths and outright lie machine might be going full throttle in order to convince that many more people to vote their way though. It is true for just about any election in Oklahoma, no matter what the issue is it is basically decided by a very small minority of the residents. In the case of the Ford vote, roughly 8.5% of the residents of OKC decided to "keep the same tax rate that we have now" for the other 91.5%. So many voters only vote once every four years in the presidential election, not realizing that these local elections that probably have more of a day-to-day impact on their lives traditionally have a very low turn-out (Ford vote was double the norm). It is in these local elections that could very well come down to a matter of a few votes (the lower the voter turnout, the more each vote is worth).
Larry, Oklahoma City - Jun 30, 2008 11:11 PM
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Larry, you might find this intesting ....

1995

March - A state House of Representatives committee kills a proposal to help finance a stadium with lottery proceeds, admissions taxes and other state revenue. Mariners threaten to move. Gary Locke, who was then the King County executive, and Seattle Mayor Norm Rice appoint a panel to look into building a new ballpark south of the Kingdome. Estimated cost: $250 million.

July - Locke asks the Metropolitan King County Council for a tax increase for a new stadium on the September primary-election ballot. Plans call for the stadium to be built in time for the Mariners to play their 1999 season in an open-air, natural-grass ballpark with a retractable roof. "It will ensure the survival of baseball in Seattle," Locke says. "It is time to let the voters play ball on this issue." Construction would be funded by a county sales tax of one-tenth of 1 percent. Estimated cost: $285 million. The ballot measure would raise $240.8 million. The Mariners pledge to contribute $45 million but make no promise to cover cost overruns.

Sept. 28 - Nine days after a vote too close to call, a count of absentee ballots shows the stadium-funding measure failing by 1,082 votes. There were 245,418 votes, or 49.89 percent, in favor of a stadium, and 246,500 votes, 50.11 percent, opposed.

Sept. 29 - With the Mariners vying for a West Division title, then-Gov. Mike Lowry calls for a special session of the Legislature to assemble an alternative stadium package.

Oct. 14 - The Legislature closes a raucous three-day session by approving a financing plan for a retractable-roof stadium, now pegged at $320 million. It would be paid for with state money and $208.6 million in new King County taxes - an additional 0.5 percent sales tax at restaurants and bars, an additional 2 percent on rental cars and a 10 percent admission tax on events at the new ballpark.

Oct. 23 - The Metropolitan King County Council votes 10-3 to proceed with Legislature's bond plan.

Bill, Everett - Jun 30, 2008 10:21 AM
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I guess at this point it doesn't really matter, but
Seattle had one more big stadium project beside the
re-contruction of Key Arena, Safeco Field and Qwest Field. It was spending $67 million in 1994 to fix
the Kingdome roof ... That allowed the Mariners and
Seahawks to play in the Kingdome for 4 more years.
--- http://www.qmetrics.com/kingdome.htm
Bill, Everett - Jun 30, 2008 10:19 AM
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Larry I am glad to see someone other than myself bothered to understand how our government was intended to operate. I disagree on the practicality of the 51% to qualify point though while interesting I fear we would get even less done than we do now. As I am sure you aware by now I also disagree with you labeling the Ford vote and increase (extension of preexisting) but I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on that one. Cucumber I never said anyone had to have any schooling to vote some could successfully argue college education has no bearing on intelligence. I simple wish people would educate themselves about the issue before heading to the polls. As a whole our country votes with a level of ignorance for the issue that is appalling.

Brent, Jenks - Jun 30, 2008 9:35 AM
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David Stern said all the same positive things about Vancouver getting an NBA team that he is saying about OK getting an NBA team, literally all the exact same things and the future of the two teams is exactly the same too!! Remember Bennett has proven that he is a liar and his only interest is making money, he doesn't give a crap about the people of OKC, he just wants your money, when the team never goes anywhere and the fans quit coming he will sell that team out of state so fast you will never even know OKC had a team. David Stern is the same way, everything he is saying about OKC is the EXACT things he has said about the other cities where NBA team failed.
Bob, Boston - Jun 30, 2008 12:21 AM
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Everybody should stop fighting. Look Seattle even if the Sonics leave you aren't losing much of a team except for Durant, OKC you aren't getting much of a team except for Durant and he isn't going to stay with the Sonics if they go to OKC so really you aren't getting anything. Seattle you will get an expansion team that will be great!! OKC you will have an NBA team for a few years until the novelty wears off, Bennett starts losing money and sells the team out of state and that is the way it will go. So OKC you should'nt be so cocky because your team won't last long and NO NBA players want to come there. And Seattle, dont worry you really aren't losing anything and you WILL, I have connections with the NBA, get another team. It all works out in the end, no need to be calling eachother names.
Bob, Boston - Jun 30, 2008 12:10 AM
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If the judge allows the Sonics out of the lease, could a Seattle jury still award the City of Seattle $340 million in damages? Therefore shouldn't the Sonics determine the damages before leaving Seattle?



















Kent, Edmond - Jun 29, 2008 11:11 PM
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Cucumber wrote: "...how do you propose for that to happen?" It would require the Legislature to change the rules (of course it is highly unlikely they would do that) or a citizen's petition putting it on the ballot. Not saying it is ever going to happen but it might reverse the trend of voter apathy. Instead of elected officials giving lip service to wanting high voter turn-out, it would make them actively achieve high voter turnout (if they knew that they didn't get that 50% plus one, whatever issue it was would automatically be null and void and they would have to try again). Not really that much different than the rules in the Legislature, if they don't have a quorum present, they can't even conduct business. It's not like if one party or the other stages a walkout the other party can convene and pass what ever they want to. Similar rules should apply in elections. Also, we don't have a democracy. As someone pointed out below, that would require everyone voting whenever anything had to be decided. What we have is a Constitutional Republic (that has some democratic elements to it) with elected representatives (they in turn cast those votes when ever anything has to be decided, (theoretically representing their constituents). Originally, it was set up where the "lower" House of Representatives were "democratically" elected by "the people" (whatever the definition was at the time) with the "higher" house, the Senate, and the President were not. This way, the Senate could be "statesmen" and do what was best for the country (even if it went against the will of the possibly mis-informed voters). They didn't have to be concerned about voters and opinion polls because their jobs didn't depend on them. That has changed over time. As it was correctly pointed out the Founding Fathers not only had a distrust of a monarchy, but they also distrusted the common man (often uneducated). Interesting to note that after we won our independence from the King and Great Briton, there were some wanting to make George Washington the King of the United States of America...fortunately, he declined, but I digress... They feared mob rule and purposely set the government up to be very slow moving.
Larry, Oklahoma City - Jun 29, 2008 12:39 AM
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You Washies are all about excuses. Here's a news flash....we really don't care.
paul, yukon - Jun 28, 2008 11:50 PM
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A small educational session here. I was just recently home in eastern Washington surrounded by my family and his friends discussing the Sonics situation. You Okies need to understand (you will probably not absorb this for self-serving reasons but whatever) that Washington state is NOT all about Seattle. Many in the eastern and other out-lying parts of the state have a serious anti-Seattle attitude. I lived in that city for 15 years so I see both sides. Most in my parents part of the state are almost happy to see the Sonics go. Due to the mountain-pass geography many in the eastern part of the state resent paying state taxes that are spent in Seattle and the state-sponsored backing of a new Mariners ballpark is still resented in those parts. THIS is the lack of support you Okies perceive to be this states sin in regards to the Sonics. I have also read numerous emails from those in Tulsa that have similar attitudes towards those in OKC. The difference here is OKC was able to come up with a plan to fund their own arena without the rest of the state and Seattle was not. If OKC had not been able to they more than likely would have ran into the same funding buzzsaw that Seattle did and now OKC would not be "supporting" their team..
Leonard, Houston - Jun 28, 2008 10:59 PM
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Larry, how do you propose for that to happen? People have the right to vote, but no one can make them. By not voting those people voice their opinion as not caring either way. They just live with the out come. That is what is democratic about the process. Or, I guess it could be like Brent thinks it should be, you can vote if you have a college education, if not you can go back to your hole, because your opinion does not matter. I served in VietNam so we could have those choices.
Dude, Love - Jun 28, 2008 10:03 PM
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"How do you suggest we make the process more democratic? By forcing everyone to vote?" No, of course not..what needs to be done however, is require for ANY election to be valid, it gets at least 50% plus one of the registered voters. Not just the 50% plus one of those that show up to vote. Ideally 50% plus one of all eligible residents.
Larry, Oklahoma City - Jun 28, 2008 9:23 PM
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Chris wrote: "Look up the pro vote and divide it into the population of OKC...10-15% would be my guess." Less than that, it works out to about 8.5% of OKC residents voted for the tax increase.
Larry, Oklahoma City - Jun 28, 2008 9:07 PM
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paul, ordinarily Hornets' games would never be shown in Oklahoma city. It was a conscious decision on the part of David Stern to allow them to be shown here last year, as we are actually in the Mavericks' sphere of influence, although we do not get their games on local television. So, being able to watch the Hornets last year was a special gift from David Stern. I'm not sure I get your point, regardless.
Jill, www.okcthunderfans.com - Jun 28, 2008 4:29 PM
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"My point was to show how flawed Jill's conclusion was to suggest that the vote on MAPS was Democracy in her use of the word. When only a few vote for a tax on everyone, it is a corruption of the ideal of Democracy." Ah Chris, but democracy is inherent in the ability to choose. Some people choose not to vote. They are all able. We have no more poll taxes or literacy tests in this country, so those who do not vote are doing so in a democratic fashion: it is their choice. Virtually everyone can walk to a local polling place, because they are so close to most people's homes. One can always register to vote when one gets a driver's license, and frequently the supermarkets locally have voter registration tables set up in front of them as we approach election times. How do you suggest we make the process more democratic? By forcing everyone to vote? That makes it rather an oxymoron, doesn't it?
Jill, www.okcthunderfans.com - Jun 28, 2008 4:27 PM
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"I watched a lot of Hornets games on channel 7 the last three years.
Jill, Oklahoma City - Jun 28, 2008 4:20 PM"...and they weren't even in OKC, were they? Imagine that...
paul, yukon - Jun 28, 2008 4:24 PM
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"In your view, the uneducated, low income citizenry just did not know that what they and the city really needed was to pay for an arena to house an NBA team for the entertainment of the elite..." There are tickets to NBA games selling for $10, which is about the price of a movie ticket. Then, Frontrowfans.com sells donated tickets for half price, so it's possible to get them for $5. Players give tickets away, frequently to lower income students and their families. As Roger mentioned, television is another option to watch games. I watched a lot of Hornets games on channel 7 the last three years.
Jill, www.okcthunderfans.com - Jun 28, 2008 4:20 PM
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"I get to feel however I want about those around me because it’s the truth.Brent, Jenks - Jun 28, 2008 12:51 PM" Remember that Brent the next time you decide to slam me for talking about Okie yokels, OK??
paul, yukon - Jun 28, 2008 3:19 PM
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Bennett wasn't the first to get city and state freebie's. If you remember this started quite a few years back, with Remington Park and their total control to this day of horse racing and betting..... Them came along Bricktown and the Bass Pro. They got everything free, didn't they????? The standard had been set by the time Bennett came along. The city nor state did anything different for him than they had already done.
Dude, Love - Jun 28, 2008 2:53 PM
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"In your view, the uneducated, low income citizenry just did not know that what they and the city really needed was to pay for an arena to house an NBA team for the entertainment of the elite...The poorer folks in OKC don't have tv's to watch and enjoy their first ever major league team?...A good chunk of sports fans across the country can't afford to actually go to games but they can watch the games for free at home...Don't have to attend to games to enjoy them...OKC likes to pay off major projects with cash instead of long term debt...I think many other major cities out there wish they could do the same....No strategy is perfect but this is pretty dam* close regardless of how you spin it
ROGER, MOORE - Jun 28, 2008 2:45 PM
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If your point was missed Chris it was because you didn't make it. Do what you want to do, feel how you want to feel, blame who you want to blame, and enjoy your weekend
Brent, Jenks - Jun 28, 2008 1:27 PM
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In your view, the uneducated, low income citizenry just did not know that what they and the city really needed was to pay for an arena to house an NBA team for the entertainment of the elite, and furthermore that is the American Way!!
Chris, Seattle - Jun 28, 2008 1:21 PM
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Brent, seek anger management, please. My point, which you missed, was in a meritocratic elite society that you advocate, it is a sliding scale that defines status. You can't infer on yourself, like you are doing, but it comes from the larger, subjective community. Everyone is at risk of suddenly being on the wrong side in your world, depending on events. You buff yourself up at the same time as denigrating me and my "kind"...that kind of thinking is striking in it's arrogance and ignorance.
Chris, Seattle - Jun 28, 2008 1:17 PM
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Above average people are only rare becasue people like you choose the path of least resistance and reward such action with your belief and politics. I invite someone better than myself to challenge me it is the driving force behind what makes me excel and what separates the elitist you hate from the common. Our country used to be filled with people who were driven and proud they didn’t ask for a free ride or make excuses for people who had more than they did they went after it they went to the Job core when they were down built something and had pride in themselves. That is gone and you are helping to make sure we forget it ever existed there is no personal responsibility left you and all your kind come on here and cry about how bad clay is and how your team is stolen. Self reflect own up and change your situation instead of just crying about it that’s how it relates to this conversation. Instead your answer is I hope you get yours someday not I'm gonna better myself and join you TYPICAL.

Brent, Jenks - Jun 28, 2008 12:59 PM
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I get to feel however I want about those around me because it’s the truth. The Nazi’s chose to destroy them I disagree with that approach I just don’t choose to make excuses for them. They are fortunate they were born now not at a time when they would have been destroyed by nature or those around them. I accept with our social civilization we must accept that they will survive despite their ignorance but I do not have to agree that they should influence my existence or that I should have my money passed to them as a reward for their mediocrity. You can pretend this isn’t the truth same as you can pretend it isn’t your own regions politics that cost you your basketball team but you are just further training yourself to do what those you label elite and despise want you to do. Your choice..
Brent, Jenks - Jun 28, 2008 12:51 PM
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It is people like yourself that think you and your type are "above average"...kids, intelligence, morals, etc. When in fact average is the huge norm. Mediocrity is subjective but smacks of average more that anything else. You pal are much more likely average than the rarer above average. Be careful what you wish for since a time may come when the true above average come after you those like yourself and me and the vast majority of Americans.
Chris, Seattle - Jun 28, 2008 12:46 PM
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We have gotten way off topic. My point was to show how flawed Jill's conclusion was to suggest that the vote on MAPS was Democracy in her use of the word. When only a few vote for a tax on everyone, it is a corruption of the ideal of Democracy. Also, your aside about slack jawed jaffo's was frightening. Who, in your world gets to place that label and any other on your fellow citizens? Nazi party members perhaps?
Chris, Seattle - Jun 28, 2008 12:41 PM
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I'm not mocking the government just more accurately describing it and its intention than you are. As to class and income based vision I absolutely view the world in these terms. You might hide behind your politics and accept what your Liberal politicians dribble to you but at the core they are all the same. They send their kids to private school and float in the same class as I do. What they tell you on TV tricks your uneducated mind into believing it’s not your fault you are mediocre and that they care about you despite said mediocrity. In truth they just need your vote to maintain their elitist rank. Look in the mirror pal you know I am right.
Brent, Jenks - Jun 28, 2008 12:34 PM
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You are arguing pure democracy versus our past current and future form which is not a pure democracy. Every citizen does not vote for or determine each decision made by our government. A monarchy has no representation by the citizens in any form you are comparing several very different forms of government to justify your flawed opinion. A small voting populace decides every aspect of our country and even then we don’t set the policy our elected officials are given wide leverage in setting policy without our direct approval. Pure democracy exists and is successful only in a small populace situation and is not a viable form of governing. If you want some slack jawed jaffo affecting your every day life and pocketbook sign up for a pure democracy. Our founding fathers didn’t and you don’t either it just makes you feel like a good little liberal to say so in public.
Brent, Jenks - Jun 28, 2008 12:27 PM
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Funny how conservatives mock "government" and "social" programs, etc. Those are merely euphemisms for the people...us, the whole community. Your vision is class based, income based. Sad and scary but unfortunately our present. Hopefully not our future.
Chris, Seattle - Jun 28, 2008 12:18 PM
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Brent, your idea of government has a name: elitism. That is not a Democracy but closer to monarchy. Look how many of the wealthy pay ZERO in taxes, with off shore accounts and other rip offs available to them. Jill, made a point that suggested people "chose" to spend tax money on these projects. I was trying to point out how few actually did that choosing. Look up the pro vote and divide it into the population of OKC...10-15% would be my guess. Democracy?...no.
Chris, Seattle - Jun 28, 2008 12:15 PM
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I left an l out of appalled and you and your ideas have destroyed a once proud country. Thanks Chris keep voting up there the worst of your problems is losing your NBA team.
Brent, Jenks - Jun 28, 2008 12:14 PM
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Typical Liberal Pansy look at the percentages the rich pay 10% I pay 28% trust me Chris the 10% of a Billion pays for allot more useless crap for your liberal junk social programs than the 28% of your measly wage. The US tax system is an inverted pyramid with the top core paying for the base of the pyramid. As to our founding fathers intention the fact that they set it up with white landowning males makes my point. They inaccurately viewed them as the educated class of citizen and only wanted them voting for an electorate not directly for the president or the senators. They feared the uneducated voting mass and did not set up a pure democracy. Review the spelling all you want Chris but you and your ideas are historically and fundamentally flawed. I could run this through spell check or have my secretary type them what are you going to do about you flawed views?
Brent, Jenks - Jun 28, 2008 12:06 PM
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Roger, there are the true destitute, yes, but a huge portion of the tweeners...those who don't qualify as poor but spend every dime, and then some on bare necessities. Also, consider what even $5, as a percentage of income means to the indigent as opposed to the wealthy. Thats why taxes based on spending are considered regressive. The rich get off, percentage wise much better. There are so many ways to avoid the tax altogether with the means the rich have at their disposal. Oh, Clay will be laughing...if not now (see scowl on face in Seattle courtroom), but certainly when the cash out occurs, when he sells to (pick one) Cincinnatti, St. Louis, Jacksonville, etc.
Chris, Seattle - Jun 28, 2008 11:47 AM
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Wrong Brent. "They" did not set it up this way. Originally only white landowning males could vote. The process of "Democracy" is always evolving. Currently, because of the outsized influence of money, negative advertising, deliberate attempts to reduce the franchise for large blocks of potential voters, IMO, we are in an ebb of what we consider "Democracy". A quick review of your spelling makes me wonder if you should be one of the excluded for lack of intelligence.
Chris, Seattle - Jun 28, 2008 11:40 AM
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The poor and elderly are eligible for a refund of their sales tax come tax time...Poor spend less as well so even w/o the refund they are forking out about $5 a month...Insignificant...Clay clay has shelled out about $50 million so far so I doubt there is any laughing when he receives his Sonics statements...Now or 10 years from now
ROGER, MOORE - Jun 28, 2008 10:30 AM
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Welcome to our countries form of Government Chris they set it up that way. In fact they would be appaled at who we allow to influence our country and its laws and leaders at this point. If you think it is different anywhere else or not intended to operate in that fashion you are one of the ones the founding fathers would not want voting for lack of intelligence.
Brent, Jenks - Jun 28, 2008 10:27 AM
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Jill...your "democracy" as you put it is far from it. In fact, it is a vote by a fraction of the people often swayed by a monied elite who will benefit the most. Virtually all pay the tax, but only some are registered, fewer still will actually vote and those that vote are very often uninformed. It has produced your regressive tax, MAPS that places an oversized burden on the poor who contribute to an arena to house a team they can never afford to see. Clay Clay and his cronies are laughing all the way to the bank.
Chris, Seattle - Jun 28, 2008 10:18 AM
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"The Ford "needed" $100 million in improvements in only about 5 years (after being built to NBA/NHL requirements/standards). The City lease is a "break-even" one so we aren't going to have any money there. Less than a half million a year only comes to 2.5 million in 5 years. How is that going to pay for another $100 million in improvements that will be needed once again??"...It won't...That will be paid by the taxpayers again...Will be an easy sell when the OKC folks see what a difference the team has made on the city...If the evidence isn't clear then look for the city or state to go another direction in getting the upgrade funded
ROGER, MOORE - Jun 28, 2008 9:45 AM
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"Relief will "sweep over me" Brent when I am leaving this state, and not until then."...Who will take over your Negative Nancy trying to rile up Okies character when you do Paul?...Please get someone lined up before ya go for the sake of this forum...Just wouldn't be the same
ROGER, MOORE - Jun 28, 2008 9:38 AM
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Howard Schultz's lawsuit is a late, lame effort to redeem his reputation in the Seattle area.
Gaylord, seattle - Jun 28, 2008 8:24 AM
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Jill wrote: "I believe, since we are a democracy, that people get to choose what to spend money on. One can argue that having an NBA team improves leisure time options in Oklahoma City, and if the voters agree, then it doesn't really matter if it's educational." By all means Jill you are allowed to spend YOUR money on any leisure time activity you want. Just don't require the other 91.5% of the residents to be forced to pay the taxes to subsidize YOUR choice of leisure activity (a purely entertainment one). Never said an NBA team isn't an acceptable leisure activity that if people want to spend their money on it they can. The point is, the NBA or any professional for-profit sports business should be supported by the people that buy their product (as it is with any business). If someone wants to open up a McDonald's franchise, they can't just do whatever they want with the business (they can't put it where ever they want, can't put whatever items on the menu they want etc, they have to get approval from the corporation--much like the NBA). It is not the governments responsibility to make sure that franchise owner has a viable business plan and it certainly isn't the city's responsibility to build him the building for his business. Certainly isn't the City's responsibility that his building is maintained and updated every few years to keep up with the corporations ever changing standards of what is a McDonald's. Did you realize that we are on the hook to do just that? According to the lease, OKC is required to maintain and keep improving the Ford (and presume this might very well extend to any "successor arena" that the owners may demand) to keep the Ford current with whatever the NBA standards evolve into? The lease with the team lasts 15 years (possibly up to 30 years). The Ford tax "only" lasts for 15 months and only covers the current upgrades. Where are we going to get the money to continually upgrade the Ford? The lease stipulates that we have to use the current naming rights amount (that the owners are so generously allowing the City to continue getting and has to be put into a fund for the Ford, for the teams use...so it isn't really the City's money afterall if it has to used for the teams benefit). That's less than half a million a year (while the owners get to keep anything above that, easily in the $90 million range...if Memphis is any indicator, a slightly smaller market got for their naming rights). The Ford "needed" $100 million in improvements in only about 5 years (after being built to NBA/NHL requirements/standards). The City lease is a "break-even" one so we aren't going to have any money there. Less than a half million a year only comes to 2.5 million in 5 years. How is that going to pay for another $100 million in improvements that will be needed once again?? Please explain.
Larry, Oklahoma City - Jun 28, 2008 2:25 AM
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Jill wrote: "it's not our choice....So, the people here aren't going to be able to make anything happen either." But you DID have a say in the matter Jill...it was called the Ford tax increase vote. At that point in time Bennett had already filed for relocation (actually 6 weeks before the vote was even announced) so it was NOT a vote to "lure" a generic team (the mere fact they kept calling it a "lure" for a team implied an existing team, so even if you thought it wasn't the Sonic's, you were still a party to taking another city's team). You could have said NO to taking another city's team but in your blind lust to get ANY NBA team, you went along with it. Then keep trying to rationalize it. One thing I don't get if the NBA is THAT important to you (you don't really care what team or by what means it comes here), why haven't you moved to a city that already has a team? That way you CAN pick your favorite team and if they relocate somewhere else, just relocate with them.
Larry, Oklahoma City - Jun 28, 2008 1:50 AM
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ESPN's Lester Munson gives updated opinion [Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:17 pm]


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I feel much better this afternoon after hearing Lester Munson's interview on KJR radio. He still feels that the city of Seattle still sits in a very strong position to win its lawsuit, and all the fuss about Slade Gorton role will not hurt the city's case as much as people would think. He also went on to say that he was suprised that the defense took on Slade like they did since he is so well respected and known in the legal field, and claimed that the defense was trying everything they could to combat a iron clad lease agreement that is specific about a team not being able to break its lease. He stated that the city's lease agreement had specific language to prevent what Bennett and his group is attempting to do, thus he does not see the city losing this case. He also went on to say that he believes that the Howard Schultz lawsuit is very unique, and is looking better and better and time moves on. I hope KJR replays this interview for all to hear, it was very encourgaging for Sonic fans in Seattle.
Clay, Scumbag - Jun 27, 2008 10:40 PM
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Hahahaha! The three dog sex video stories are more popular than the Sonics story. I guess the OKC mascot should have a canine theme...
Fred, Seattle - Jun 27, 2008 10:05 PM
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"I will not support a team that is run by a person who will lie" Guess you weren't a Hornets' fan, or did you not live here then either?
Jill, www.okcthunderfans.com - Jun 27, 2008 8:51 PM
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I guess I didn't see your question, Matt, but I'd be happy to try and give you an answer if I did....
paul, yukon - Jun 27, 2008 8:02 PM
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Chicago used to be known as the Windy City but that Title has since been taken by the News OK message board regarding anything sonics related!
Danney, Oklahoma City - Jun 27, 2008 7:31 PM
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Welcome to the hot air board
Danney, Oklahoma City - Jun 27, 2008 7:30 PM
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phillip, to answer your question, I know I would love to have an expansion team. I don't think there is any reason for us not to have an expansion, other than the dilluted market in the southern US. I would love nothing more to start fresh with our own team, our own name, our own history, and players. But, if this is the way it has to be, then so be it. The people of Oklahoma want an NBA team, and in my mind deserve it. I really wish it didn't have to come at the expense of another city, though...
Nathan, Norman - Jun 27, 2008 5:54 PM

I coultn't agree with you more. Granted, I have no love for the NBA....I have been holding out hope for the longest time for the NHL to come...I would feel better about supporting a team of any kind that was and OKC original rather than one from any other city. I will support it none the less regardless.
Paul, seriously you need to get over whatever it is you have against OKC, not for our benefit rather for your own. There is good and bad about everywhere. I for one was the typical Tulsan that thought OKC was nothing more than a wasteland and wished OU would have been in Tulsa. Untill I had lived there for a couple years that is. And one more thing Paul, I asked you a question yesterday and I am still waiting for an explaination.
The answer to Phillip's question is that no one cares where a team comes from they just want one. Judge Pechman said it best when commenting about fans not having a say in these matters. We don't.
Matt, Fayetteville - Jun 27, 2008 7:02 PM
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Paul lives in Yukon!!! Its in Canada.
Kim, Nichols Hills - Jun 27, 2008 10:53 PM
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Hey!! I Hate, don't you use your wife's hard working money, while you sit on your unemployed butt, while she is working
Kim, Nichols Hills - Jun 27, 2008 10:48 PM
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If the Sonics win, will a Seattle jury still determine how much the lease is worth?
Kent, Edmond - Jun 27, 2008 6:36 PM
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I've offered to buy you a one way bus ticket out of town several times, Paul.....the offer still stands.
paul, yukon - Jun 27, 2008 6:12 PM
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Funny you mention that, Nathan..I'm not exactly thrilled about you either.......
paul, yukon - Jun 27, 2008 6:07 PM
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...and Paul, go back to whatever state you came from. We don't like you.
Nathan, Norman - Jun 27, 2008 5:55 PM
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phillip, to answer your question, I know I would love to have an expansion team. I don't think there is any reason for us not to have an expansion, other than the dilluted market in the southern US. I would love nothing more to start fresh with our own team, our own name, our own history, and players. But, if this is the way it has to be, then so be it. The people of Oklahoma want an NBA team, and in my mind deserve it. I really wish it didn't have to come at the expense of another city, though...
Nathan, Norman - Jun 27, 2008 5:54 PM
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Well Paul, when you leave, we can only hope you will be more happy, instead of act as though you are bi-polar. Good luck to ya when you leave, and here's to your newfound happiness.
david, oklahoma city - Jun 27, 2008 5:24 PM
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When is that glorious day going to occur? I'm sure we could get a vote on the ballot to celebrate it properly.
Brent, Jenks - Jun 27, 2008 5:13 PM
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BTW Brent..it's "grammar", not "grammer"...I think "grammer" is something a 2 year old calls his mother's Mom...
paul, yukon - Jun 27, 2008 5:03 PM
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Relief will "sweep over me" Brent when I am leaving this state, and not until then.
paul, yukon - Jun 27, 2008 5:00 PM
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Ok so now the truth comes out Paul you vote in your "home state". I'm pretty sure you never said that so typing slow might only improve your grammer. Since you are a "home state" voter get involved in their issues and we will mind ours. Relief swept over me when you admitted you arent from here I would hate to think the fine city of Yukon sprouted such a sad seed.
Brent, Jenks - Jun 27, 2008 4:54 PM
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Great movie by the way!
phillip, Seattle - Jun 27, 2008 4:51 PM
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I say, we just start our own league!!!!! Will make you the comissioner Phillip, Jill can handle all the PR work. And Brent can handle security. I will play, manage,and coach my own team, like Will Farrell in Semi-Pro! lol Sorry, just trying to lighten it up in here.
Kevin, Oklahoma City - Jun 27, 2008 4:49 PM
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Ive lived in the area before and talk about no love for the Clippers. People wanna say we over in Seattle dont support our team...whatever man!
phillip, Seattle - Jun 27, 2008 4:46 PM
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Kevin good point...and L.A. is all about the Lakers and Kobe anyways.
phillip, Seattle - Jun 27, 2008 4:44 PM
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"f you dont even vote and then complain You are a coward and don't deserve to call this place home if you do truly reside here.
Brent, Jenks - Jun 27, 2008 4:28 PM" Try again, Nimrod..I vote in my home state, not this one. Thats why I made the comment about "you" voting for them and not "me". Was that simple enough to understand or should I type slower??
paul, yukon - Jun 27, 2008 4:43 PM
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Paul, i think people just can not understand why you choose to stay, if you hate it so much. Period. I am not calling you any names. Just stating what seems to be obvious. Here is a question, why doesn't someone just make the Clippers sell, because we all know that they are never going to put a winning team on the floor. Besides why does LA deserve two teams?
Kevin, Oklahoma City - Jun 27, 2008 4:40 PM
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Coo....anyways. Im gonna ask my question again. Would it be so bad if guys eneded up getting an NBA team just not the Sonics or does it have to be the Sonics for you guys?
phillip, Seattle - Jun 27, 2008 4:37 PM
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Man....why so much hostility. Youre gonna get ur NBA team Brent. Who cares what one of your own says...he is entitled to his opinions and what not just like the rest man.
phillip, Seattle - Jun 27, 2008 4:31 PM
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Your right phillip they should have parents as a role model but if you have Paul for a dad what is a kid to do?
Brent, Jenks - Jun 27, 2008 4:30 PM
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So Paul what you are admitting is you dont vote but you bitch and whine anyway. That's typical and I might say probably just fits your personallity. Secondly, I vote every time I am given the opportunity and I vote for every person I feel will lessen the influence the government has in my life and my bank account. The vote on the ford center was a rare chance to pay for something I might actually use as opposed to all the rest of the entitlement programs that you and your kind rely upon so heavily. The good news is the Liberal nut jobs cant get all you lazy free ride loafers off your duff every time and the rest of us who actually have something stand a chance at keeping it. If you dont even vote and then complain You are a coward and don't deserve to call this place home if you do truly reside here.
Brent, Jenks - Jun 27, 2008 4:28 PM
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I for one would never have NBA plaeyers be role models for my children. The parents should be role models. If youre gonna use NBA players being a role model as a statement...to me that just ridiculous.
phillip, Seattle - Jun 27, 2008 4:22 PM
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I doubt if too many people in Oklahoma City want the Sonics to the exclusion of any other team. Most of us who care actually would have liked to keep the Hornets. The bottom line, Phillip, is that it's not our choice. It is a choice made by David Stern, the BOG and the people who have enough money to buy and sell teams. So, even if you get everyone on this message board to agree that they'll accept some other team besides the Sonics (which most of us would), it will affect nothing. Our mayor and Clay Bennett tried very hard to get us an expansion team for quite a while without any success. So, the people here aren't going to be able to make anything happen either.
Jill, www.okcthunderfans.com - Jun 27, 2008 4:22 PM
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"...Zoos, Arts Councils, museums..." All have educational components to them and "parks, tennis courts, golf courses and bike paths" are there to provide and encourage people to be active and exercise (they don't have to do it but the opportunity is there). Other perfectly acceptable roles of government include safety (like the police and fire you mentioned). Infrastructure like roads and bridges. Something like the NBA, a professional, for profit, purely entertainment venture doesn't qualify." Sorry to disagree, Larry, but it's a value judgement that entertainment has to educate or cause someone to get exercise. The above mentioned activities may educate or may encourage people to get exercise. I agree that both are good. But, I disagree that everything funded has to either educate or increase physical fitness. I believe, since we are a democracy, that people get to choose what to spend money on. One can argue that having an NBA team improves leisure time options in Oklahoma City, and if the voters agree, then it doesn't really matter if it's educational. I will point out, however, that my youngest son refused to learn addition and subtraction tables, despite a concerted effort on my part. However, when he wanted to know margin of victory and a variety of other statistics about sports, he taught himself to add and subtract, and he can do it in his head far better than I can. Players can provide positive role models for children and encourage them to take up the sport of basketball. All is not lost....
Jill, www.okcthunderfans.com - Jun 27, 2008 4:18 PM
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And no the Kings are having issues as well as Memphis. These are teams that could be leaving their market in the near future. In the 2 yr period diff options would be available.Their would be different variables for sure.
phillip, Seattle - Jun 27, 2008 4:18 PM
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"Paul would rather pay into some bureaucratical quagmire where it will be misused, mishandled, overspent, and in some cases flat out lost. You must be a liberal on top of a simpleton Paul. You are what our forefathers feared the most an uneducated voting populace. As long as you and people like you exhist we will never have the government we want we will have the government we deserve. The second we overruled natural selection and allowed people like Paul to survive despite their own stupidity we began our slow and painfull social decline as he and his kind bear offspring it worsens. Sad state of affairs really.
Brent, Jenks - Jun 27, 2008 9:11 AM" Brent..I assume you must not be a voter, because these are YOUR elected officials, not mine, that have created your "quagmire"....pat yourself on the back, eh??
paul, yukon - Jun 27, 2008 4:17 PM
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Again I disagree...we all assume because all mighty STERN says that no expansion is in the plan...we are supposed to believe him? I just dont have nay faith in that man and what he says. And I htink if the NBA is forced to take action..they would. This whole thing isnt over yet....their hasnt been forced so to speak. It could end up in their favor without steppin in. I dont know...again Im just talkin and I guess thats all it is...just talk at this point. Im just saying anything can happen.
phillip, Seattle - Jun 27, 2008 4:17 PM
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"don't think Paul from yukon lives near or has ever been in Oklahoma. I think he is in Seattle and just wants to be an ass...something he is extraordinarily good at.
James, Midwest City - Jun 27, 2008 2:06 PM" Good God James, are you that much of an idiot? I've named off at least a dozen places around Midwest City/Mustang/Yukon/ OKC that couldn't possibly be known by somebody without having lived here. Maybe you should meet me at the gas station in front of Wal-Mart in Mustang for proof, or maybe you can wait till Christmas ans we can meet up at the lights in the park out behind Albertsons here in Yukon..get real...I live here, and it's fools like you that make life slightly intolerable here...
paul, yukon - Jun 27, 2008 4:15 PM
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