Group seeks drug legalization in Oklahoma
‘End to prohibition’ would lead to more problems in the state, opponents say
BRIAN KIMBALL
Comments 
711
Published: June 15, 2009
Modified: June 16, 2009 at 9:28 pm
A group of current and retired law enforcement and legal personnel claim they have the answer to ending the war on drugs.
"We’re all calling for an end to drug prohibition. We want to end it just like we ended alcohol prohibition in 1933,” said
Jack Cole, executive director for
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, or LEAP.
This billboard, sponsored by Law Enforcement Against Prohibition, will be on display until July 9. PHOTO BY PAUL B. SOUTHERLAND, THE OKLAHOMAN
Multimedia
"The day after we ended that nasty law,
Al Capone and all of his smuggling buddies were out of business,” he said.
LEAP boasts roughly 13,000 members, among them 102 in
Oklahoma; only 11 of the state’s members have law enforcement experience. LEAP put up a billboard at 7800 N Broadway that reads: "Drug Abuse is Bad. The Drug War is Worse.” Cole said the reason for this ad campaign is to open the public’s eyes to the true cost of the war on drugs.
However, LEAP represents a minority of the nation’s law enforcement.
Mark Woodward, spokesman for the
Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs, said legalizing and regulating drugs would cause more problems than it would solve.
"It’s frightening and reckless that a group of law enforcement officers would endorse something like that. ... Look at what happened when we legalized alcohol and prescription drugs,” Woodward said. "Now they’re the two most abused substances globally.”
According to the
Office of National Drug Control Policy,
President Barack Obama called for $14.1 billion to support the war on drugs for the 2009 fiscal year.
Cole, who was an undercover narcotics officer in
New Jersey for 14 years, said the drug war has been going on since the early 1970s and the point was to clean up the streets, but the opposite is happening.
"The point is the government now has absolutely no control over the drugs that are used in this country,” said
Wes Johnson, a
Tulsa defense attorney, former narcotics officer and member of LEAP.
Johnson said if drugs were legalized, the government would be able to control the quality, quantity, production, price and distribution — much like alcohol and tobacco — and make money off of it, but "right now, the criminals control all of that.” All the current system is doing is driving up the cost of the drugs, Johnson added.
People on both sides acknowledge there’s a long way to go before legislation to change the law would come to fruition.
"I think our legislation has a great appreciation for the destruction drugs have created in the state of Oklahoma and in the families and the community they represent,” Woodward said. "I don’t see legislators supporting something that could possibly lead to more of this type of destruction.”
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Raven, guthrie - Jun 19, 2009 at 3:01 pm" - Raven, just now saw your comment - hope you are doing well. I didn't dream you were serious about the FB thing - that's why I always put "LOL" after talk about it. But if you're serious, I'll e-mail it to you. Put an addy up in the orginal thread we were debating in (you know the one), and I'll send you the link.
Jason, Edmond - Jun 20, 2009 at 1:30 pm
OK I've been out in the sun since Friday - so my brain is fried. What is the FB thing? Email your facebook link to me at silvermansarah@live.com :)
Legalizing marijuana could provide some income for the government in the form of taxes, and yes, they could regulate it's distribution, sale and growth to some extent; but to believe it would totally eliminate the illegal growth of it statewide - or nationwide in a grander scale - is insane. What it will do is make the illegal grower's supply so much more expensive - possibly - that they will no longer be able to turn a real "profit" from its sale: Unless of course the government only allows the legal sales of crappy marijuana that won't supply the smoker with any of the effects they are seeking from legal pot.
In the long term it will give the public yet another means to drive intoxicated and kill additional innocent persons while under its influence. Before the rest of you jump my butt for saying this and going on the "Pot doesn't have the effects of...blah blah blah"; I am a former smoker and yes it does. I can attest to that from personal experience. A "good high" leaves you as dangerous behind the wheel, if not more so, than a "good buzz" from alcohol. We need to weigh ALL of the consequences of this action before jumping on either "bandwagon". There are some clear benefits to either course of action; but there are also some clear issues to be considered.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 17, 2009 at 3:36 pm" - I offered a link to my Facebook page to anyone who wanted it yesterday. It has my pictures all over it. I got no takers. (*laughs out loud*)
Raven, guthrie - Jun 17, 2009 at 3:18 pm" - Now up to TWENTY-THREE posts by the admitted threatening stalker "Raven" to moi.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 17, 2009 at 3:34 pm" - Lovely, ain't it? A true stalker at work. Now up to TWENTY-ONE posts by the admitted stalker to moi.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 17, 2009 at 3:18 pm"
Raven, guthrie - Jun 17, 2009 at 3:18 pm"
Raven, guthrie - Jun 16, 2009 at 10:14 am" *** Lie #2: " I hate to add anyone else to my ignore list. It makes the conversation lousy. Oh well, I guess it is time to do it anyway. Have a good night.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 15, 2009 at 5:08 pm" - And yet here she is @ 2:02 pm, posting to me after claiming she had me on *ignore*. *** Lie #3: "I’m sick of Jason pretending with his “with all due respect raven” BS" - I never stated any such thing; she just made some crap up, AGAIN. *** That's three more bald-faced lies "Raven" has been caught engaging in *just today* - and the day's not over yet. Yesterday it was literally dozens. A proven habitual liar "Raven" has proven herself to be, and she is proud of it.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 17, 2009 at 3:18 pm"
LIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIARLIAR! Indeed...
Raven, guthrie - Jun 17, 2009 at 3:18 pm"
Jason, Edmond - Jun 17, 2009 at 3:23 pm
I never said anything about hurting your family. Where did I say I was going to hurt your family????? LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR
Raven, guthrie - Jun 17, 2009 at 3:18 pm" - Read it again, folks. Ugly stuff coming out of that former druggie turned welfare layabouts keyboard this afternoon. "Raven," have you started using again?
I'm not stealing from my employer. You have no idea what my job even is, so how would you know if I'm on the clock or on a break or on lunch” Raven, guthrie - Jun 16, 2009 at 2:52 pm~~~~~~~~~ “And yet YESTERDAY "Raven" claimed she only posted on her "lunch break," Jason, Edmond - Jun 17, 2009 at 3:15 pm
LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR
Now you’re just making stuff up Jason. Why are you lying? Why won’t you answer my question? Who is my "other" personality posting here? You said yesterday it was Michael whose posts have mysteriously turned into Paula's. So if I am Michael, why are my posts not Paula's as well?
Raven, guthrie - Jun 17, 2009 at 3:18 pm" - Read it again, folks: a straight up promise to find my family, with an implied threat to do bodily harm to them and me. A true stalker.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 17, 2009 at 3:18 pm" - A pure stalking threat. Read it, folks: she's admitting to be a stalker.
The trademark pattern of the obsessed troll - this one once went by the name "Paula, MWC" - has played itself out here with textbook predictability: 1. The obsessive first posts a hostile, *ad hominem* reply to a post made by the target of her obsession. This isn't even done in the context of a direct reply, but rather in "support" of another poster. 2. The poster, having said nothing of consequence, is not replied to, so she doubles down and continues to try and engage the object of her obsession. 3. At some point her most fervent desire is met, and an interaction is started. 4. The obsessive is asked a straightforward series of questions in a vain - and a knowing one at that - attempt to elicit one of two things: (a) some sort of legitimate factual-counterfactual discussion, or (b) an inquiry into why, exactly the poster continues to engage in a conversation that does little but run around in *ad hominem* circles, with the poster herself becoming increasingly agitated. 5. The obsessive feigns disinterest at this point, tells falsehoods about how the discussion was initiated, and then proceeds to proclaim bemusement leading to eventual "boredom." 6. The obsessive continues to check the thread every few minutes, craving a further interaction while using the defensive "I do this for my bemusement" argument when her self-apparent obsession with the opposing poster becomes so evident as to be undeniable. 7. Eventually, the target of her obsession wanders off, and the obsessive gets the "last word" - which is more example of the pathology. 8. Another thread, another day: wash, rinse, repeat.
Doesn't say I'm 30. You still didn't read what Earl said right before my post. It's like you have OCD & Turrets. I sure wish I knew where you lived.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 16, 2009 at 10:14 am" *** Lie #2: " I hate to add anyone else to my ignore list. It makes the conversation lousy. Oh well, I guess it is time to do it anyway. Have a good night.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 15, 2009 at 5:08 pm" - And yet here she is @ 2:02 pm, posting to me after claiming she had me on *ignore*. *** Lie #3: "I’m sick of Jason pretending with his “with all due respect raven” BS" - I never stated any such thing; she just made some crap up, AGAIN. *** That's three more bald-faced lies "Raven" has been caught engaging in *just today* - and the day's not over yet. Yesterday it was literally dozens. A proven habitual liar "Raven" has proven herself to be, and she is proud of it.
- LOL, and this is, in some ways, the most pitiful lie "Raven" has told to date, though her fake story about a friend who died in a car wreck is the most despicable. She claims to be a 26 year old who has worked for "nearly 30 years" dealing with addicts. What a divine miracle! "Raven" was able to work on this earth with human beings for four years before she was even born!!! The fact of the matter is that she has told so many lies that she has lost track of them - a liar has to have a good memory, as my grandfather used to say. She has a poor one, which is a shame (for her) since she is such a prolific teller of falsehoods.
~~~Good point Debbie. If all the slimeballs kill themselves off, it would be a much safer world. That isn't a bad idea.
If we legalize weed it is going to piss off the methheads and crackheads Jerry. They'll say we're prejudiced.
Folks smoking weed don't rob banks and kill people.Folks smoking crack and meth rob banks and kill people.
From: http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/wom06.htm
The Effects Of Marijuana On The Fetus
Marijuana, Fetal Development, Birth Defects
Given evidence that THC affects female reproductive function, one might expect it to have a potentially adverse effect on the outcome of pregnancy.
There is a possibility that THC, and possibly other cannabinoids, are teratogens, (i.e. substances that may interfere with the normal development of the foetus in utero).
The animal evidence indicates that in sufficient dosage cannabis can produce resorption, growth retardation, and malformations in mice, rats, rabbits, and hamsters (Bloch, 1983, p406).
Growth resorption and growth retardation have been more consistently reported than birth malformations (Abel, 1985).
There is also evidence that cannabis increases rates of malformations but the doses required to reliably produce malformations have been very high.
Such effects have been observed more often after the administration of crude marijuana extract than pure THC, suggesting that other cannabinoids may be involved in producing any teratogenic effects and not THC, the active ingredient in marijuana.
Some have argued, for example, that the malformations may be a consequence of reduced nutrition caused by the aversive properties of the large doses of cannabis used in these studies.
Hollister (1986) has also discounted the animal research data, arguing that virtually every drug that has ever been studied for dysmorphogenic effects has been found to have them if the doses are high enough, if enough species are tested, or if treatment is prolonged.
http://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20030325/marijuana-may-harm-fetus
Marijuana May Harm Fetus
Smoking Marijuana While Pregnant May Harm Baby's Brain
WebMD Health News
March 25, 2003 -- Smoking marijuana during pregnancy may cause lasting behavioral and mental defects in the child. A new study in animals suggests that children who are exposed to marijuana in the womb may suffer from a variety of long-term problems even if they aren't born with obvious birth defects.
Researchers say that although marijuana is the most widely used illegal drug among women of childbearing age, little is known about the side effects of prenatal exposure to marijuana. They say previous studies have produced conflicting results because it's difficult to account for potential contaminants frequently found in marijuana and contributing effects of other drug and alcohol use.
In this study, researchers examined the effects of exposure to an artificial component of marijuana called WIN in the offspring of rats who received the synthetic cannabinoid while pregnant. The mother rats received a daily injection of the drug that was comparable to a low-to-moderate marijuana dose inhaled by a human smoker.
The results are published this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
Researchers Giampaolo Mereu of the University of Cagliari in Italy, and colleagues compared how these marijuana-exposed offspring compared to others rats in terms of memory and motor activity. They found that the rats exposed to WIN in the womb were significantly more hyperactive than the other rats, but these differences diminished as the rats reached adulthood.
The effects of exposure on the rats' learning abilities were more long lasting. The WIN-exposed rats consistently scored lower than others on learning tests throughout their lives.
Researchers say they also found that WIN interfered with the release of a brain transmitter called glutamate, a key chemical associated with learning and memory processing.
Although these findings have not yet been confirmed in humans, the authors say these effects on brain chemistry and activity are consistent with existing data showing learning problems in children exposed to marijuana while in the womb.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/apfdfy/Unborn.html
When giving the THC to the father, what effect does it have on conception or on the process of pregnancy?
When we treated the males with cannabinoids, some of them had significant problems in making the females pregnant.
And if those animals did make a pregnancy, many of the pups died as fetuses before the pregnancy went full term. In pups that survived birth, there was a significant increase in the number who died before they could eat on their own.
Once the THC-treated males impregnated the untreated females, the females had more difficulty maintaining the pregnancy and raising those pups to adulthood. We presume that the THC caused some defect in the father’s sperm, since that was the only way that these pups were exposed.
When we looked at the sons that did survive and grow up, they were as there fathers had been - less fertile and producing more losses in pregnancies which did occur. When we looked at chromosomes in the testes of both fathers and sons, we found abnormal chromosomes and birth defects in the third generation.
You can say that these studies were done on only animals, but it would be a little unethical to test on pregnant women don't you think? Or are you so unethical that you think it is OK?
Norma in Norman
"... Look at what happened when we legalized alcohol and PRESCRIPTION DRUGS,” Woodward said. "Now they’re the two most abused substances globally.”
When were prescription drugs illegal?
Andrew, Glendora - Jun 16, 2009 at 4:30 am
The most persuasive evidence will come from the Netherlands. The Netherlands changed their law in 1976. Their sort of coffee-shop distribution system for cannabis evolved over a decade. Remember, the Dutch have not fully legalized cannabis. But basically any adult who wants to buy cannabis can go into a coffee shop and buy it. The level of cannabis use in the Netherlands is lower than it is in the United States. The percentage of young people who use cannabis and then go on to try “harder” drugs is less than it is in the United States. Their problem with HIV/AIDS among drug users and with overdose fatalities and even with the overall number of people using these drugs is dramatically lower than it is in the United States.
It's about time to put an end to this idiotic drug war once and for all.
Just say NO and end this idiotic, Failed program!
Until/unless people wake up and realize this and start treating drug abuse and addiction as the health issues they are and not moral issues, we will continue to see more and more deaths from overdoses and drug violence, all of which would not happen were drugs legal.
When was the last time we read about rival alcohol or cigarette gangs shooting it out in Mexico or here in the US over a shipment? Or when was the last time someone robbed a business or bank to fuel their tobacco or booze habit? Or died from drinking because the bottle of booze had poison or impurities in it? The answer is never.
The only answer is to legalize it all and tax it all, but as long as the "moral" people in charge push back, it will never happen. And more and more people will die, needlessly, and billions of dollars will be wasted on interdiction.
Trying to take money from Mexican gangs will not make them weaker - you will make them more violent, and possibly have more situations here in the US as the borders are not secure. The drugs being offered in Mexico - were not MJ on the several occassions I have been approached.
Michael, you state in one paragraph that some people like to use MJ because it is illegal, and they want to be cool, but in another you say that by legalizing MJ, it will reduce the demand for harder drugs - "Legalize 'soft' drugs like marijuana, and suddenly there's a whole lot less people at risk of moving on to harder drugs." If you legalize MJ, there will be more access to it, some law abiding citizens will start using it, and more people will be drug-users. Whether they move onto to harder drugs??? Mexican gangs will still be around, and they will still have MJ. If you talk to any of them - they say there are two jobs in Mexico - stealing and selling drugs, that is why they come here to get away, and to get away from the drugs and drug dealers. Why I say we close the borders, but make working permits easier for foreigners to get. Search everything in and out.
Also, yes they will just keep selling coke and heroin and other such drugs, but that will be far far less damaging. For one, a lot of people come to use those drugs because they like the less dangerous drugs such as pot and shrooms, and the source they go to for those drugs also happens to like to push every other illegal substance on people. Legalize 'soft' drugs like marijuana, and suddenly there's a whole lot less people at risk of moving on to harder drugs. Also, it will be a lot easier to fight the harder drugs that are actually damaging and killing people when we're not focusing the majority of our efforts on preventing from people sitting in their house smoking a plant and eating chips. Also, on that comment, pot will not turn you into a lazy unmotivated slob. I hate to have to elaborate on that but I fear some will ignore the point of it and try to twist it around into something else.
"Look at what happened when we legalized alcohol and prescription drugs, now they’re the two most abused substances globally.”
For one, prescription drugs have always been legal medically. Also, doing away with the prohibition of alcohol didn't turn it into the most abused substance on earth. It already was and still was when prohibition was implemented. Prohibition didn't stop people from using it at all, they simply moved to the black market to feed their appetite for it. That's also the main reason behind prohibition being ended. People like to get drunk and they weren't going to let the government stop them from deciding what they can put in their body. Same with marijuana.
As a side note, look at tobacco. We've more than halved the amount of tobacco users in the nation in the last 40~ years without raiding a single place or arresting or even punishing a single person, except the obvious such as the ones who've sold it to kids and such.
Meanwhile, we've spent over a trillion dollars fighting the war on drugs and all we have to show for it is more people using drugs, more drugs becoming available, and the destruction of many many of our own and even foreign communities by allowing the black market to control it's trade and feed America's hunger for drugs. Point is, a campaign based on information has done a LOT more for getting people off of a drug than one based on violence and intimidation. Also, it being illegal just promotes its use. People are attracted to being a rebel, especially kids. A lot of people start using drugs for one single reason, it makes them feel cool to be 'bad'.
Drugs may never be the most desirable option possible, but when it comes to that it's always best to choose the least harmful option available. This is the reason we legalized alcohol. No, alcohol is not very good to use at all, but fact is people will still use it and regulating the who/how/etc of the use of alcohol is a far less damaging option on everybody than making it illegal. The drug itself is bad but it's better to just deal with that and not allow other things to be added into the equation such as gangs and cartels controlling the market and the vast amounts of destruction that result from that.
http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/about/98reauthorization.html
Sec 704, (12); shall ensure that no Federal funds appropriated to the Office of National Drug Control Policy shall be expended for any study or contract relating to the legalization (for a medical use or any other use) of a substance listed in schedule I of section 202 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 812) and take such actions as necessary to oppose any attempt to legalize the use of a substance (in any form) that--
(A) is listed in schedule I of section 202 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 812); and
(B) has not been approved for use for medical purposes by the Food and Drug Administration;
Basically, the government is required to do what it can to keep Schedule I substances (Such as marijuana) illegal, even for medical purposes. This is the main reason people are fed a load of lies over the whole deal. Thing is, the legalization movement is winning over if you look at the nation as a whole and everything that's going on. Common sense has begun to overtake the people and the argument on the anti-legalization side just aren't working anymore.
As time goes on the dangers they attribute to marijuana are reduced. A good amount of evidence has sprang up that's shown that it really isn't as physically harmful as it was thought to be, so they're having to find new arguments to try and keep people from supporting it's legalization. I recall recently the Above the Influence campaign trying to paint pot as bad because it can make you less good at gaming. Any debate they have over it now basically boils down to 'Crime will go up!', this argument can be easily destroyed by applying a little logic, or 'Kids will have access to it!' which when you consider things like controls/regulations/age limits, is true but misleading. Yes, kids will have ways to get to it, but not nearly as much as they currently do. If legalized it won't be impossible but will be a lot more difficult for them to get their hands on it. It's nothing less than a walk in the park for a kid to get some.
Also, a suggestion that goes off topic. Ignore the trolls and the people spewing disrespect. Neither side of this issue will get anywhere if we're all stuck in a rage over someone's immaturity. If someone is throwing out insults or any sort of disrespect, then just ignore them. They're not beneficial to anybody and I don't believe giving them even a second of anybody's time is worth the loss of dignity. Stay above their level and help further this debate in the most respectful way possible.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 16, 2009 at 10:14 am" *** Lie #2: " I hate to add anyone else to my ignore list. It makes the conversation lousy. Oh well, I guess it is time to do it anyway. Have a good night.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 15, 2009 at 5:08 pm" - And yet here she is @ 2:02 pm, posting to me after claiming she had me on *ignore*. *** Lie #3: "I’m sick of Jason pretending with his “with all due respect raven” BS" - I never stated any such thing; she just made some crap up, AGAIN. *** That's three more bald-faced lies "Raven" has been caught engaging in *just today* - and the day's not over yet. Yesterday it was literally dozens. A proven habitual liar "Raven" has proven herself to be, and she is proud of it.
- LOL, and this is, in some ways, the most pitiful lie "Raven" has told to date, though her fake story about a friend who died in a car wreck is the most despicable. She claims to be a 26 year old who has worked for "nearly 30 years" dealing with addicts. What a divine miracle! "Raven" was able to work on this earth with human beings for four years before she was even born!!! The fact of the matter is that she has told so many lies that she has lost track of them - a liar has to have a good memory, as my grandfather used to say. She has a poor one, which is a shame (for her) since she is such a prolific teller of falsehoods.
Now as far as cannabis is concerned, before it was outlawed federally in 1937 it was 1 of the top 3 drugs prescribed by doctors. Pot is illegal now because Big Pharma doesn't want to compete (and lose) against it. Plus it makes arresting and incarcerating minorities easy. Want to arrest someone? Just plant some pot them and cuff them.
See http://s269.photobucket.com/albums/jj48/phillydrifter/drugs/cannabis/Bottles/ for some examples of how it was used medicinally before it was outlawed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/opinion/14kristof.html?_r=2
"Published: June 13, 2009
This year marks the 40th anniversary of President Richard Nixon’s start of the war on drugs, and it now appears that drugs have won.
“We’ve spent a trillion dollars prosecuting the war on drugs,” Norm Stamper, a former police chief of Seattle, told me. “What do we have to show for it? Drugs are more readily available, at lower prices and higher levels of potency. It’s a dismal failure.”
Of course, all of you people who are in favor of drug prohibition, feel free to go have a few drinks and wrap your car around a tree, or take out an innocent family of 5 on your way home from the bar tonight:
http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30
Tobacco 435,000
Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity 365,000
Alcohol 85,000
Microbial Agents 75,000
Toxic Agents 55,000
Motor Vehicle Crashes 26,347
Adverse Reactions to Prescription Drugs 32,000
Suicide 30,622
Incidents Involving Firearms 29,000
Homicide 20,308
Sexual Behaviors 20,000
All Illicit Drug Use, Direct and Indirect 17,000
Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs Such As Aspirin 7,600
Marijuana 0
Ken, McAlester - Jun 16, 2009 at 3:34 pm" - I noticed that too, right off the bat, Ken. It was an absurd statement Woodward made.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 16, 2009 at 10:14 am
Report as inappropriate
To the 8:27am cowardly person who can't even think of a bogus name to use who says I'm generalizing, my opinion is based on almost three decades of dealing with drug and alcohol abusers. It's factual. The opinion of one user doesn't change that.
Terry, you have an excellent point but one must remember most of our lying leaders are themselves abusers of alcohol or drugs so with that in mind I still rate the druggie/alkie crowd as the most dishonest with our politcos a close second. Thanks for bring that up.
Earl, Oklahoma City - Jun 16, 2009 at 10:07 am
Where exactly in that post does it say that I am 30 years old? It even says "Earl" at the beginning of my post!! I was reiterating what he'd just posted. Is that like, not done, or something. You're giving me a headache. Peace out.
- LOL, and this is, in some ways, the most pitiful lie "Raven" has told to date, though her fake story about a friend who died in a car wreck is the most despicable. She claims to be a 26 year old who has worked for "nearly 30 years" dealing with addicts. What a divine miracle! "Raven" was able to work on this earth with human beings for four years before she was even born!!! The fact of the matter is that she has told so many lies that she has lost track of them - a liar has to have a good memory, as my grandfather used to say. She has a poor one, which is a shame (for her) since she is such a prolific teller of falsehoods.
Jerry, I don't think the prisons are full of MJ users, maybe some dealers and manufactureers. These are not ordinary citizens they are criminals. People using MJ should be fined heavily so that they might change their "evil" ways. When police admit they do not arrest users because they just get out in hours, then how can we call it a "war" on drugs? People do it in public with no fear of the consequences. 14 billion per year to secure our boarders, airlines, watercraft, submarines (yes they use them now) is hardly a "war". Maybe this group will rekindle the efforts of our society and legislature to take the "war" more seriously, and shut down our borders? We can use MJ in Oklahoma because the majority of it comes from Mexico!
Michael, Guthrie - Jun 16, 2009 at 3:03 pm" - No she didn't, "Raven" (because you ARE "Raven," just changed you moniker to act like a second person is backing you up). I "busted" HER, and she is now trying to act like she didn't type what she did. Nice try.
- LOL, and this is, in some ways, the most pitiful lie "Raven" has told to date, though her fake story about a friend who died in a car wreck is the most despicable. She claims to be a 26 year old who has worked for "nearly 30 years" dealing with addicts. What a divine miracle! "Raven" was able to work on this earth with human beings for four years before she was even born!!! The fact of the matter is that she has told so many lies that she has lost track of them - a liar has to have a good memory, as my grandfather used to say. She has a poor one, which is a shame (for her) since she is such a prolific teller of falsehoods.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 16, 2009 at 10:14 am" *** Lie #2: " I hate to add anyone else to my ignore list. It makes the conversation lousy. Oh well, I guess it is time to do it anyway. Have a good night.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 15, 2009 at 5:08 pm" - And yet here she is @ 2:02 pm, posting to me after claiming she had me on *ignore*. *** Lie #3: "I’m sick of Jason pretending with his “with all due respect raven” BS" - I never stated any such thing; she just made some crap up, AGAIN. *** That's three more bald-faced lies "Raven" has been caught engaging in *just today* - and the day's not over yet. Yesterday it was literally dozens. A proven habitual liar "Raven" has proven herself to be, and she is proud of it.
#2 I added you to my ignore list, and I took everyone off my ignore list this morning because conversations weren’t making any sense if I couldn’t see what everyone else was saying. Again, not lying.
#3 You’re absolutely correct that it was Scott, but you reposted it in about 10 of your sh|t talking posts to me. My apologies.
- LOL, and this is, in some ways, the most pitiful lie "Raven" has told to date, though her fake story about a friend who died in a car wreck is the most despicable. She claims to be a 26 year old who has worked for "nearly 30 years" dealing with addicts. What a divine miracle! "Raven" was able to work on this earth with human beings for four years before she was even born!!! The fact of the matter is that she has told so many lies that she has lost track of them - a liar has to have a good memory, as my grandfather used to say. She has a poor one, which is a shame (for her) since she is such a prolific teller of falsehoods.
roach clip with every dime bag at Abextra.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 16, 2009 at 10:14 am" *** Lie #2: " I hate to add anyone else to my ignore list. It makes the conversation lousy. Oh well, I guess it is time to do it anyway. Have a good night.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 15, 2009 at 5:08 pm" - And yet here she is @ 2:02 pm, posting to me after claiming she had me on *ignore*. *** Lie #3: "I’m sick of Jason pretending with his “with all due respect raven” BS" - I never stated any such thing; she just made some crap up, AGAIN. *** That's three more bald-faced lies "Raven" has been caught engaging in *just today* - and the day's not over yet. Yesterday it was literally dozens. A proven habitual liar "Raven" has proven herself to be, and she is proud of it.
Oh and one more thing, yesterday at 4:17 PM you said AND I QUOTE: “"So tell me again, how have I ruined my life exactly?" - YOUR the one that has been going on and on and on about how you are against legalization because drugs turned your life into hell. You are surely not so stupid that you are unaware of what you've been posting all day, are you?”
That is the whole quote, I don’t want to confuse you. When you said “YOU’RE THE one……………..” you should have said “You’re the one” . That is what I was referring to when I was correcting you. You thought I was talking about “You are surely not so stupid that you are unaware….” Copy and paste it into Microsoft Word, Jason. It is all-knowing.
I was right the whole time, but you started whining that I’m an idiot. Yeah yeah get pissed off because you hate the grammar police. I’m sick of Jason pretending with his “with all due respect raven” BS. He has no respect for anyone. I doubt he knows what the word respect means. Calling a 26 year old recovering addict a whore is not my idea of respect. I find it hard to believe he actually has a wife. No self respecting lady in her right mind would stoop so low as to be with an asshat like Jason.
Amen, Denver. What is this outside group doing here, anyway? And, yes the weird handshakes give me heebee jeebees, too. Is there some sort of secret Shriner handshake? I know them, too!!
~~~ Phil - Are you serious? There are stories all the time where guys beat on their wives, parents, kids, when they're high on meth. Meth makes you steal and do a lot of things you wouldn't do if you weren't on the stuff. I know this isn't what this story is about, but yes meth makes otherwise calm people turn violent. The meth addicts killing their dealers to get the meth. It happens. Why do so many people caught with meth have guns? They're paranoid and violent.
What this group is trying to do is show that our current policys and actions are not effective at reducing drug use. In fact the percentage of americans addicted to drugs has remained nearly constant at 1.3% since the late 1800's when they decided to outlaw opium and cocaine which was a popular recreational drug at the time. What the war on drugs has done is push the drug market underground where it creates violence, corruption and huge a public burden to enforce the laws and house the criminals.
That is the point this group is trying to get across, we have not slowed drug use with our current policys and laws, we have only made things worse. Public education and treatment programs are the only way we are going to reduce this problem. Take the profit out of the black market and reduce violence, tax the folks that are going to use the drugs anyway and use the tax money for education programs instead of incarcaration programs.
This is not about legalize marajuana. This is not about saying its OK to get high. This is about what we are doing is wrong. We are making criminals out of ordinary people for use and possesion when we should be helping them overcome thier addiction. Just the money that we would save from reduced prison load and the Billions that we spend to fight this war on drugs, not to mention the tax revenue from legal sales would pay for this eduction serveral times over and might actually achieve something.
Take a look at this groups website leap.cc with an open mind. It made a convert out of me.
Jerry - Oklahoma City
marcel: 13 states have allowed medicinal cannabis, some of them allow people to grow it themselves. Also NJ is on the brink of becoming the 14th state to allow medicinal cannabis, and before anyone else mentions it again, federal law DOES NOT 'trump' state law. The federal government, as outlined by the Constitution, has 2 duties: to regulate INTERSTATE commerce, and to protect from foreign invasion.
But we're so far removed from the signing in 1776 and our own government intentionally promotes lies (in the Drug Czar's job description he is allowed to lie to 'prove' his point).
These people make their living off of drug prohibition; OF COURSE they're against legalization/regulation. Cops are against (with the exception of LEAP) legalization because they make their money busting nonviolent drug users. Prison guards are against legalization because they'd be out of a job. We have a higher incarceration rate in America than any other country in the world (like i said, it's to replace lost slave labor with prison labor.)
BTW Portugal decriminalized all drugs and their country hasn't exploded. In fact, drug usage rates dropped, because as Mark Twain pointed out, and I paraphrase since I can't remember the exact quote, "all you have to do to make something appealing is to outlaw it."
In my haste to post I forgot to include the word 'legal' but regardless, I've used every drug that doesn't require a needle (no way I'm sticking myself with a needle for any kind of high) and alcohol is the only drug, legal or not, that turns people into argumentative, beer-muscled clumsy oafs.
Have you ever smoked pot? No? Then you have no opinion.
Pot is not dangerous and don't refuse *my* propaganda because you've been brainwashed by the *government's*.
Cannabis is illegal for many reasons, none of which are moral. Research William Randolph Hearst who was a newspaper tycoon who would have lost millions if a newly invented 'hemp decorticator' would have run him out of business. He's the father of 'yellow journalism,' printing outright lies about cannabis to protect his trees from plummeting in value. If we could create paper from hemp, his acres upon acres of trees to feed his newspaper presses around the country would ... nevermind, none of you people have a clue what you're talking about.
For your own sake, read tinyurl.com/1mn it's only a 20 minute read, god forbid you people educate yourselves. http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/whiteb1.htm is the url that tinyurl.com/1mn will point you to so you don't even have to worry that i'm sending you to some...whatever it is you people imagine.
Do some research on cannabis like I did instead of talking about something you know absolutely nothing about.
That's quote, directly from tinyurl.com/1mn
Which by the way is a transcript of the speech given before the California Judges Association in 1995, just before California passed Prop 215; prop 215 was to allow people to use cannabis with a doctor's prescription.
Oh yeah Bobby, I'm deaf as a result of 'ototoxic' drugs given to me when I was hospitalized.
'War on Drugs' my ass. It's a war on minorities. Read tinyurl.com/1mn instead of spewing your uneducated hate.
Alternet.org is NOT a pay site, however they just hit me with an ad after I entered that url that prevented the page from loading. (That's the first time I've ever had that happen at alternet.) If they do it to you, just click 'skip this ad' in the upper right corner of the overlay that loads, then enter the url again and you're good to go.
Come on now.
Kids ALREADY can get cannabis easier than alcohol. Why? Because drug dealers don't card their users. (pot, weed, 'marihuana/marijuana' is a Mexican Spanish word; we're not speaking Mexican Spanish so stop calling it 'marijuana.' Call it by it's english name: cannabis.)
The war on (some) drugs was waged so Uncle Sam could replace lost slave labor with prison labor.
Think about it: cannabis has grown on this planet since before recorded history. You really think it's such a threat to mankind? We've not only survived but thrived regardless.
The government would much rather have 100,000 people killed every year on the roads by drunk drivers, but they just can't let those minorities vote! That's what the war on (some) drugs is all about: preventing minorities from voting, keeping them from getting ahead.
Terry, you have an excellent point but one must remember most of our lying leaders are themselves abusers of alcohol or drugs so with that in mind I still rate the druggie/alkie crowd as the most dishonest with our politcos a close second. Thanks for bring that up.
When were prescription drugs illegal?
Are you a fan of brain cancer? Me either: http://www.forbes.com/feeds/hscout/2009/04/01/hscout625697.html
Secondly, Lawrence, you're using a couple sites devoted to saying pot(and drugs in general) are evil, do you really think they'll give a non-biased, balanced pro-con list?
Get truth, not scare-tactic BS: http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis_health.shtml
To quote that last link "The political climate around cannabis and other recreational psychoactive substances has made it complicated to find balanced opinions about its safety and risks. The Federation of American Scientists has an interesting article on the issue of cannabis-risks and the political motivation on those on both sides of the issue."
That artical is here: http://fas.org/drugs/issue7.htm#1
Remember-- Truth > Law
Also about Abstacts/Pubmed. It's a service provided by the National Institute on Health and I doubt they'd be using and promoting as true any information that they haven't checked to ensure that it's valid.
Other drugs like coke and meth and nicotine and even caffeine work differently and are physically addictive. What happens with them is they directly take over a function or several functions of your brain. Your body gets used to that drug taking over a function, and stops doing it on it's own and eventually loses that ability, and ends up requiring the drug.
A person could be somewhat bothered by not being able to have any, but they can still function just fine. The discomfort they'll have from it is pretty much the same as someone who's addicted to food/overeating and can't have any right when they want it. It's nowhere near as bad as part of your brain literally not working right though. Yes, people will become addicted to it but the majority won't, and the addictions that do come about won't be as damaging as that of other drugs and won't produce a very significant impact on society.
They mention that there are compunds found in MJ that are benficial. Nothing I have read said that MJ was beneficial. Also, there was an article stating some benficial results, but it wasn't from smoking MJ it was from isolating the certain compound and injecting it (needle). Another link merely said that cigarettes were more likey to cause cancer than MJ.
Michael if you look at almost ay substance you can break it up, and state that it contains healthy compounds.
I will try to read some more tomorrow, maybe you can post some more links that I don't have to PAY to read.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1277837
http://news.illinois.edu/NEWS/04/0608oralcancer.html
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20030701/heavy-marijuana-use-doesnt-damage-brain
http://www.ur.umich.edu/0607/Oct16_06/01.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4286435.stm
http://www.ukcia.org/research/SmokedAndOralInAsthmatic.php
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16183560
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/126/10/2191
http://www.expert-reviews.com/doi/abs/10.1586/14737175.8.1.37
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14570037?dopt=Abstract
http://www.marijuana-addiction.net/marijuana-side-effects.htm
http://www.clearhavencenter.com/substance-abuse-treatment-resources/signs-of-Marijuana-use.php
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/evidence99/marijuana/Health_1.html
No self respecting law enforcement individual or group would stand behind something so ridiculous.
If the powers that be want to call it a "war on drugs" then treat is a such with no restrictions nor limitations. That is the only way to stop this tragedy in America and send a message that we will no longer tolerate it on our streets.
I have seen too many times, children falling to the wayside and becoming second to those who use and abuse drugs. And then those very people get upset when an outside influence has to intervene and remove the children from the environment that the users have themselves created.
The simple fact is this. If drugs were okay ... they would have been legalized a long time ago.
Lawerence, Oklahoma City - Jun 15, 2009 at 10:50 pm" - I *am* on the "far right," and am quite proud of it. Indeed, I don't even refer to myself as a "conservative," but as a Reactionary. In fact, I am a Barry Goldwater conservative, which today is an all but extinct creature. It's not so much I support the "legalizing" of drugs, but rather the shrinkage of government power in an arena in which there is no overwhelming threat to good order in our society. It was in the same spirit I opposed the Patriot Act. Hope that answers your question.
Also, about the gateway theory. Pot itself doesn't make you go on to harder drugs at all. The only reason people who smoke pot are more likely to venture into things like heroin/meth etc is because of who they purchase it from. They can't go to a smoke shop or anything of that sort to purchase it legally, so they have to look in the black market and go through sources like the gangs. Guess what? They also happen to deal meth and other hard/obviously bad drugs and can easily push it on the people who do business with them. Another thing that helps further that problem is the fact that people use pot and see that it's nowhere as bad as they're led to believe it is, and just assume that because the danger of marijuana is grossly over exaggerated, so is the dangers involved in hard drugs. If cigarettes became legal and the black market took control of that industry, people who smoke cigarettes would suddenly become more likely to use other drugs also because they've suddenly gained easy access to it and the people who would push it on them.
Another thing, legalization will make it less available to kids. At age 13 I could get any illegal drug i wanted... pot, meth, crack, heroin, etc etc easier than I could get my hands on a pack of cigs or a beer. Dealers won't ID you, the only thing they care about is whether or not you have the money in your hands. All it takes is a walk down the street or 10 minutes of asking a few people and you have access to anything your heart could desire. Regulate who can sell it and put controls on it like age limits and it suddenly becomes a LOT harder and in some cases impossible for kids to get it. Sure, they still will, just like with alcohol and tobacco, but not nearly as easily or to the extent that they can now.
It'll also help with crime. Legalizing it doesn't mean that the people who deal it will just give up their lives of crime but it will put a big stopper in it. There's an unbelievable amount of profit in pot, take it out of the hands of the gangs/cartels/etc and suddenly they're a lot less dangerous. Less money = less power and easier to deal with.
It'll also help the economy. First off there'd be a lot of money freed up from enforcing the laws on pot. Then there'd be all the new companies and in turn jobs that spring up to supply the market. Also, there would be more money going into the economy. The black market's control of the drug has made it to where it costs way more than it should. Someone buys an ounce and suddenly there's hundreds of dollars that's going to support people & groups that don't pay taxes on the money they make and will most likely spend the money in the black market on things like weapons/more drugs to sell. Lost money. If legalized it would definitely become a LOT cheaper, the money spent on it would directly impact the economy, and the reduction in the costs of the drug would free up more money for people to spend on other things and help strengthen other areas of the economy.
This part isn't a given but a possibility... If it becomes legal, there's a chance that a good amount of people will start to chose pot over alcohol which would do a lot of good. Driving under the influence of any drug isn't safe, but a stoned driver is a lot safer to have on the roads than a drunk driver. No matter what there are going to be people who drive under the influence of any substance, it's always best to at least help the safest option be the most likely one to happen. Pot doesn't destroy your inhibitions like alcohol does, you're less likely to get violent and create the sorts of problems that alcohol tends to encourage.
The war on drugs was two-fold. It was suppose to limit the supply of drugs while cracking down on dealers, and educate the populace of the dangers and problems associated with using drugs (public education) to limit the demand. Without control of our own borders, how can we ever control the flow of drugs (supply) into our country? I don't think we have done a good job limited the demand or public education either - mainly because their are very few funds for it. If you tell the school system to teach kids not to use drugs, but we have no money for posters, books, guest speakers, what are they to do - draw pictures on the chalkboard? I am not old enough to know what "living" in the 60&70's was like, but from what I hear - it was loaded with drugs, and not just MJ. I know the 80's and 90's were much better, but not sure about now? Meth was too abundant, too inxpensive, and too easy to get not to mention too addictive and damaging - it has taken its toll on thousands of people. People lose their kids, rob, prostitute, murder, blow themselves up making it - To me - it is worth the fight - We should make it more of a priority like Reagon, and his wife.
http://gangfighters.blogspot.com/2009/05/fort-sill-responds-to-7news-questions.html
And then go here and crunch some numbers: http://www.muninetguide.com/top_picks.php
It won't tell you anything most of us don't already know - but to see the irrefutable numbers is sobering.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/11/ap_sillgangs_111008/
Lawerence, Oklahoma City - Jun 15, 2009 at 6:41 pm" - Guess what the #1 determinant of whether a city or region is going to be a high crime area is? I'll bet everyone can guess, but no one wants to say.
It was only about half a billion per day last year.
Prohibition is counter productive and is destroying the social fabric
of our country.
The police who support prohibition do so because they will loose there jobs if drugs are legal. Every country which have decriminalized drugs have shown a drop in crime and improved health of drug addicts.
Lets legalize. Join LEAP
Here's a quote from the story: "Sensing opportunity, marijuana-reform lobbyists have enticed legislators with promises of fat tax revenues, as high as $1 billion annually in California."
Unamused, Disneyland - Jun 15, 2009 at 5:17 pm" - Unamused, there is an article in Slate magazine about this subject. Give me minute and I'll post the link.
Very much so. I'm actually quite curious to know how much of the 14 billion dollars is going towards fighting marijuana (if it is even specified).
Unamused, Disneyland - Jun 15, 2009 at 5:11 pm" - I come down in this general area, too. I'm very wary of decriminalizing Hard Drugs, but am open to arguments either way. But marijuana should be legalized and that sector of the "War on Drugs" terminated.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 15, 2009 at 5:06 pm" *** Preceded by: "You can quit the name calling" - Pitiful stuff. *** " I hate to add anyone else to my ignore list. It makes the conversation lousy. Oh well, I guess it is time to do it anyway" - By all means, proceed. You're a waste of time to "debate" with anyway.
This is for sure, but what will happen when we "legalize" one drug and let the others stay illegal? Like... meth or cocaine or LSD? Do people still do LSD? Acid? Anyway, can we -just- legalize one drug? I don't really think this is so. In order to adpot such a policy, I would certainly push for a "decriminaliztion" of pot. Stop throwing these citizens in jail and wasting money on court costs and start going after real crimes? I don't feel like hard drugs should be legalized, but I do feel like we could save some extra money by decriminalizing pot.
Unamused, Disneyland - Jun 15, 2009 at 5:03 pm" - Now, enough fooling around with a former dope fiend and working girl, and back to the subject at hand. I think we should legalize marijuana, for sure. It is the most widely used and has the least pernicious side effects.
Unamused, Disneyland - Jun 15, 2009 at 5:00 pm" - I would be against the legalization of Meth for several reasons.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 15, 2009 at 4:32 pm
So take out the words: is not exactly correct.
AND
is how you would talk crap when you said
Put the rest together, and that is what I was quoting. I'm sorry if I confused you. You're just nitpicking now trying to make me look bad. Get off your ass, go wash your hands, and go outside. You never know when you might meet me somewhere, really like me as a person, and feel bad that you called me names. My son sure wouldn't like someone calling his mommy a whore. Just like I'm sure your kids wouldn't care for me thinking their daddy is a douche bag. So I have to go home and make dinner soon, and I would like to be in a good mood when I do it. No matter to you I'm sure, but I get this really awful feeling when someone calls me a whore, and I don't care for it at all. I think I have done really well for myself, and I would hope that anyone reading any of this could see how pot being legalized might not be such a good idea. I used pot before I used anything (besides cigarettes) and it caused a lot of grief. Jason you have no idea until you've walked in my shoes. Your way isn't the only way.
Unamused, Disneyland - Jun 15, 2009 at 4:55 pm" - Talk to Raven. Not only does she not know how to spell, this entire "your" vs. "you're" thing is just to bump posts that prove she is scumbag liar further down the thread, and off page one.
Jason, you would be lucky just to get some girl in bed wouldn't you? You haven't had one in a long time have you? You sure know a lot about prostitutes. More than I do. Must be because that is how you get laid. Only you can't afford it very often. So you sit on your computer looking at porn on one screen and DOC on the other, trying to get a girl you don't know riled up because this is your idea of talking dirty. I get it now. I get it.
Anyway, I know I’m not the only person here who thinks pots should remain illegal. I just know it. Somehow, because I admit I used drugs in the past and have quit, I’m a whore. That logic is f-cked. Oh well. It sure has made the rest of my workday go by more quickly.
That is what I was talking about Jason. Get off it.
YOUR + the one that has been going on and on and on about how you are against legalization because drugs turned your life into hell.
Just because you don't understand doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Unamused, Disneyland - Jun 15, 2009 at 4:45 pm" - See my post at 4:45. More likely she's jonesing for a fix, and has got one eye on the screen an another on a potential John.
Someone tell this fool that he's wrong because he obviously doesn't understand what I'm even talking about. That isn't possession babycakes. That is a contraction of "you are". Enough with the English lesson already.
Yes, smoking marijuana is just as bad as cigarettes if not worse.
Raven was right in these simple fact, and yet there are alternatives to name-calling.
*People under the influence of alcohol also kill people. However, you would have to smoke an unimaginable amounts of pot to just right out keel over from OD.
*There are alternatives to smoking a joint, blunt, or bong. Vaporizers eliminate almost all -if not all- (don't quote me on ALL) harmful tars and chemicals in pot. You end up with THC and air.
stacy, oklahoma city - Jun 15, 2009 at 4:18 pm" - Haaaa! Excellent post, stacy.
Raven, guthrie - Jun 15, 2009 at 4:09 pm" - Oh, isn't that cute? The former druggie and likely past working girl is gonna have her a widdle tantrum. Tell us, Raven: are the urges to use coming on strong? I'll bet you've never stopped, truth be told.
However, I feel as if there should be a push for an idea such as the "decriminalization" of drugs such as marijuana. It is a fact that loads of money is wasted to house citizens and run them through the ins-and-outs of the legal system, for the use or possession of marijuana.
"nothing that feels good is good for you besides sex." really? tell that to those with STD's or HIV or a sex addiction.
Yes I do think I should have been locked up at the time. The world around me would have been a hell of a lot better place had I been incarcerated. I was a f-ed up mess and I was hurting people around me who didn't even know that I was hurting them. If I had been to jail before my last chance, I would have gotten clean a lot sooner and saved a lot of money and saved a lot of heartache for my family and my boyfriend and myself. Most definitely B, OKC.
So this genius is against using prescription drugs? WTF? I guess all of you diabetics, heart patients and folks with cancer had better go ahead and die so he'll have less work to do. The drug war is a joke and it's run by clowns. Legalize the stuff and tax the crap out of it like they do every other "sin" in this country.
For the first time, I will have to disagree. If MJ is only available from a prescription, the black market will still flourish. A lot of folks don't have health insurance and doc visits cost $100 bucks. This would have the unintended consequence of keeping the black market alive, because it would still be cheaper to obtain from dealers and thugs than the doctor. A great example is the marijuana dispensaries in San Fran. Street dealers congregate outside the dispensaries and sell to people who don't have a prescription.
A better approach is to handle it like alcohol and cigs, or just let people grow it in their homes for personal use. Then and only then there would be absolutely no reason to support the criminals and dealers.
B, Oklahoma City - Jun 15, 2009 at 3:37 pm" - Good points all, B,. My own opinions on how the substances would actually be *sold* to the public in the event of decriminalization are largely unformed, since I have not spent any substantive time thinking about the matter. Therefore, I defer to those who have. Both you and Outlaw have made good points on either side of that question. I really do not have enough information to have an informed opinion about that issue at this time. What I do know is that we agree that this absurd waste of money - making "war" on a plant sounds absurd in and of itself! - embodied in the "Drug War" is not good for this country or its citizens, let alone what damage it has wrought on Civil Liberties. That's a good start, I think.
BILLY, MUSTANG - Jun 15, 2009 at 3:33 pm" - Haaaaa! I had a girlfriend who was a pharmacist; cutest little petite thing you've ever seen. You would never have guessed that since she worked the evening shift she was *always* packing a Lady Smith. Her Dad was a retired Marine, and had taught his daughter how to handle a shootin' iron quite well.
For the first time, I will have to disagree. If MJ is only available from a prescription, the black market will still flourish. A lot of folks don't have health insurance and doc visits cost $100 bucks. This would have the unintended consequence of keeping the black market alive, because it would still be cheaper to obtain from dealers and thugs than the doctor. A great example is the marijuana dispensaries in San Fran. Street dealers congregate outside the dispensaries and sell to people who don't have a prescription.
A better approach is to handle it like alcohol and cigs, or just let people grow it in their homes for personal use. Then and only then there would be absolutely no reason to support the criminals and dealers.
Outlaw, Edmond - Jun 15, 2009 at 3:18 pm" - This is probably the best suggestion I've seen on *how*, in the event legalization ever occurred, the marijuana would be sold. Sort of like having to go into a liquor store to get a bottle of Crown, only perhaps with a scrip. Under 21 not allowed.
B, Oklahoma City - Jun 15, 2009 at 3:16 pm" - Yeah, Raven thinks it cute to play that "if you support legalization you must be a druggie like I was!" game. It's a scummy way to debate, but Raven's just been screeching and howling, anyway. She seems to think that because she's managed to turn her own life into a smoking ruin, the rest of us are as weak-willed and incapable of controlling our chemical urges as she, by her own words, was.
BILLY, MUSTANG - Jun 15, 2009 at 3:09 pm" - That's too bad, BILLY. I find myself in the Yukon Henry Hudson's from time to time, because I've got pals out that way. Would offer to buy you a beer there next time I'm out your way, but you don't drink.
If you're thinking about your tax dollars, you may wish to revisit your position. Your tax dollars are being flushed down the toidy to the tune of trillions, and guess what? Irresponsible parents are still able to easily obtain marijuana and other drugs on our streets.
I understand your passion on this issue, but you're missing the point. The argument is not: marijuana is good. The argument is: the method we are using to fight drug abuse in our society is a failure.
You seem to have benefited greatly from treatment. Congratulations. As someone opposed to the drug war I'm in favor of more treatment and drug education, not less.
The fact is, prohibition is not preventing people from using drugs. It's just enriching criminals and wasting money.
If we spent a FRACTION of the money we do on fighting narcoterrorists on drug education and treatment, we might actually be able to make a dent in the demand for drugs. And, as someone who seems to be astute on matters, you know very well that as long as the demand exists, the black markets will provide.
Raven, I may ask: do you think you should have been locked up for life for using drugs? Would that have helped you or society? Seriously, from what I'm able to read into your posts, you have been helped by drug treatment, not narcotics officers kicking down your doors to confiscate your pot and worldly possessions.
For the record, I do NOT smoke pot, and I doubt I would even if I could buy it at Homeland.
**
Yeah? So use a vaporizer. It will be nearly all THC and the rest will be air. No ruining your lungs by smoking a joint, or bong, or any other random fruit object people smoke out of.
**
I think the problem was not with the idea of creating revenue with gambling, but that nobody understood the fine print. The whole "scheme
" was introduced as "More money for schools!" Nobody understood that a very large portion was intended for the Universities. Even in larger cities, I've yet to see a -significant- change from the gambling "scheme."
**
Perhaps if this legalization were to happen, we could get the revenue part right this time?
This is a straw man argument. Your reading comprehension has either been intentionally suspended or needs to be rebooted.
There are many credible arguments you are intentionally ignoring. Let's review.
1. The Drug War has shown itself incapable of reducing the availability of drugs on our streets, despite its ridiculous price tag and 38 years of practice.
2. The Drug War has created an enormous profit incentive and black market for warring, murderous drug cartels, street thugs, and gangs.
3. The sentencing of otherwise nonviolent offenders has completely overburdened our prison system, and has actually created new and more hardened criminals, upon their release.
4. The demand for drugs in our country has not been reduced. Money that could go into drug addiction treatment and education is routed for more and shinier toys for law enforcement, who are forced to focus on drugs when they could be fighting other crimes, such as violent and property crimes, not to mention foreign and domestic terrorism.
Drug smugglers and cartels have turned our southern neighbor of Mexico into a war zone, which is spilling over our border and creating an even bigger national security risk.
None of the above even begins to address the potential health and commercial benefits of relaxed prohibition against marijuana.
Tell us, where in these arguments do you see a "smoke screen" for personal indulgement?
This is a good example. If there is no way to field a sobriety test there is probably no way to tell someone has been smoking it other than the smell or the red eyes. With weed you do not do all the stumbling or unable to walk a straight line. Yoiu can also recite your ABC's and even touch your nose with one finger while standing on one leg. I haven't seen a person that was to high on marijuana to remember who they went home with from the club. Statistics show......
Being gay and smoking legal weed are two totally different senarios! haha I mean really?
Just because cigarettes and liquor are legal does not mean it is okay to do it as a society. If you feel it is wrong then who better than you should teach your children that. Education starts in the home. Gay marriage is becoming legal. I do not believe in it so I make that clear to my kids. I am pretty confident that my kids will not be gay just because it is legal.
Will you guys be smoking weed on your lunch break?
It a good business thats always Booming.
Yeah, give a ma pack of Mari Jane 100's and a Dr.Pepper.:)
To the people that say more people will use drugs. Drug use continues to rise in the current system and it isnt getting better. It is plain dumb to keep this current system. shake up the system. Jobs can still drug test and that should be a deterrent. If you educate people enough they will make the correct decision for themselves reguardless of laws. So why not try to gain at least a little control of the process.
go to help get them off of drugs not more jails and prisons. People who are on drugs are in an altered state of awareness. To make the substances legal is insane... don't just give up on the drug abuse by making it legal.
Suite101.com Media Inc. is a private Canadian company based in Vancouver & The National Institute on Drug Abuse are the respective sites. I put the info up there for any one at this point who might have questions about the effects of THC. You can take it or leave it and frankly Kevin you can do with it what you will. I am posting my opinions regardless if they fit your mold of what can and cannot be posted. Oh. by the way, there is so much mis-information on independent and government sites, that you are better off going to the medical and or scientific communties for your information. Then after gleaning that info, making up your own mind as to how the results apply to you. And I still say the drug war is now and has allways been chiefly about the money and infrastructure it creates, and secondary about the health and safety of our populous......
Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) quickly passes from the lungs into the bloodstream which then carries this chemical to the brain and to other organs in our body. In the brain THC acts on the cannabinoid receptors which kick starts cellular reactions producing the “high” experience. Cannabinoid receptors are found in various parts of the brain with the highest density being in the part of the brain that influences pleasure, memory, thoughts, concentration, sensory and time perception.
Long term effects of chronic marijuana use have shown that a person may develop increased anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation and schizophrenia. Some studies indicate that some individuals may already have mild forms of these mental health illnesses and long term smoking exacerbates them.
Other problems include:
anxiety attacks or feelings of paranoia
impaired memory
problem solving skills deteriorate
lack of muscle coordination and judgment
Impairment of driving skills
http://drug-abuse.suite101.com/article.cfm/weed_out_marijuana_use#ixzz0IVu9FIVp&D
THC acts upon specific sites in the brain, called cannabinoid receptors, kicking off a series of cellular reactions that ultimately lead to the “high” that users experience when they smoke marijuana. Some brain areas have many cannabinoid receptors; others have few or none. The highest density of cannabinoid receptors are found in parts of the brain that influence pleasure, memory, thoughts, concentration, sensory and time perception, and coordinated movement.1
Not surprisingly, marijuana intoxication can cause distorted perceptions, impaired coordination, difficulty in thinking and problem solving, and problems with learning and memory. Research has shown that marijuana’s adverse impact on learning and memory can last for days or weeks after the acute effects of the drug wear off.2 As a result, someone who smokes marijuana every day may be functioning at a suboptimal intellectual level all of the time.
Research on the long-term effects of marijuana abuse indicates some changes in the brain similar to those seen after long-term abuse of other major drugs. For example, cannabinoid withdrawal in chronically exposed animals leads to an increase in the activation of the stress-response system3 and changes in the activity of nerve cells containing dopamine.4 Dopamine neurons are involved in the regulation of motivation and reward, and are directly or indirectly affected by all drugs of abuse.http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/marijuana.html
Im done on this story. See ya on the next good article.
I will spell it out in all caps letters.
YOU SMOKE A JOINT ON SATURDAY, YOU INHALED AND HAD A HELL OF A GOOD TIME. OK, NOW LETS SAY THE FOLLOWING SATURDAY, YOU HAVE A ACCIDENT AT WORK OR IN YOUR CAR, YOUR BLOOD WILL BE TAKEN. YOU WILL HAVE THC, AKA AS POT, WEED, IN YOUR SYSTEM.
ALCOHOL DOESNT STAY IN YOUR SYSTEM FOR A WEEK.
OK JR, HERE IS ANOTHER QUESTION, SLOW DOWN JR, YOUR GONNA HAVE TO THINK RIGHT HERE...............
HOW WOULD BE REGULATE WHAT IS A LEGAL LEVEL OF THC IN YOUR BLOOD?
That's to debate marcel. Who says its a problem if you choose to go from being productive to passing casual use? The government? Yes. They think it's a problem. I have known people who work their A** off all day at work/7 days a week, provide for their family, and are good parents. But when the kids went to bed, and the lights were off. They went out and smoked a joint and then spen the rest of the night watching movies and laughing in the privacy of their home, rather than going over to the strip club, or a friends house and getting drunk on alcohol. You can still be a productive member of society of you choose to smoke weed. So, as long as your responsible. Once you get behind a wheel and drive, then it's on you. Same as drinking.
Convincing arguments from a true conservative.
Ya not making your child listen to Jimi Hendrix are ya?
I was trying to ask a question about, how a company would handle a accident or random drug test with THC in your blood.....
Susan came along and started asking a ignorant question. Now you Mark are on here making a ignorant comment.
Its just a simple question.
Mark, are you work right now, or at home drawing off our taxes??
"Welcome to potforfreedom.com we are here to educate Oklahoma About the cannabis,hemp and marijuana plant.We hope by educating you will see it is not the demon it was made out to be.
We seek to get you active at the state and local level in reforming marijuana laws in Oklahoma.
We seek to legalize cannabis/hemp/marijuana so Oklahoma farmers can grow hemp and our sick will not have to fear prosecution for using a natural medication that may ease there pain and suffering.And last but not least we seek to to legalize marijuana for adult personal and recreational use.
We feel this will free up our crowded prison system and make catching real criminals a lot easier when law enforcement no longer has to spend time worrying about petty marijuana offenses.Why should Oklahoma farmers be missing out on this cash crop while other states and countries are making money?
Please visit our sister site at: ok4cannabis.ning.com"
Susan, Oklahoma City - Jun 15, 2009 at 9:01 am
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Susan, your kidding me right, Do you really think I was talking about drinking and doing drugs while at work. NO NO NO.
If I drink tonight and come into work tomorrow and have a accident at work, they will drug test me. If I still have alcohol in my body, then thats a problem.
If marijuana is legal and I smoke some on a Saturday. Then on Wednesday I have a accident and they drug test me, they will find THC in my blood. How do you determine what is a tolerable level?
Hey Susan, Seriously...........
Your post is ignorant.