I DON’T GIVE A DAM WHAT ANY ONE SAYS IAM RIDING WITH BIG JOHN , AND IAM BRINGING HELL WITH ME , ANY CHICKEN SH** ! REPUBLICAN THAT WANTS TO STAY BEHIND AT FORT HUCKABEE WITH THE OLD WOMAN AND CHILDREN OR HIDE BEHIND THE SAFE WALLS OF FORT BUSH, WILL HAVE GOD’S HELL TO PAY,HA HEAR ! GOD’S HELL TO PAY! HA HEAR! … GOOD ,NOW LETS SADDLE UP ,AND MOVE OUT !

OFF TOPIC: Jimmy, Sandy Shores, I've been thinking. I feel I took inappropriate liberty in my strong referencing of what I believe to be your opinon in my post to Fred, Cyril. Apologies! Though I believe we are pretty close to being on the same page, it was wrong for me to apply my interpretation and offer opinion on your behalf. I understand that I cannot know for certain your viewpoint. Please accept my apology.

We probably need to remember that folks were focused on the youth of JFK at that time of his candidacy and on into his presidency. No one could know that his young life would be cut short. None of us can count on more than the moment we now experience. One never knows.

How would I feel if John McCain was the candidate (and eventually the President)? Younger. It's been 16 years since I could say I was younger than our President. If John McCain is elected, he will become the oldest ever elected. I just hope (I am a realist) that he selects someone younger as a VP.

He strikes me as the best candidate the Republicans have to offer, and probably the only one who would attract any independent voters.

Thank you, Judie, for your patience, for understanding, for caring. I appreciate that we can disagree with a spirit of congeniality and without hostility. It's pretty neat. I have warm regard for you, as well. And..Wow! How I admire you brevity!! I need to work on that ...big-time! Happy Valentine's Day to you! Fondly,

C, I think this is one argument that you and I will never agree on, so I'll just leave you to your passion and I'll keep mine. There were subjects my late husband and I avoided and I still loved him, as I do you and I don't even really know you except through your writing. I am a journalistic writer, hence have been trained in brevity, so I can't really write as much as you, but I still love your intelligent debates. Let's keep it up. Happy Valentine's Day tomorrow from one lover to another.

Fred, Cyril...I just reviewed some data in regard to Britain's socialized medical system. The system has been in place since the late 40's. It has been the model for other European countries nationalized health care systems. ________Fred, Cyril...I feel confident after looking at the data, that I am correct in my rejection of a universal nationalized health care system. Moreover, if we think the deficit is a horror story now, if NHC should be implemented, we haven't seen anything yet. Also, from what I read, it seems certain we would experience a significant increase in morbidity rates as well as mortality rates. Stay healthy!

YIKES!! WHOA!! _______Here I come, Judie! Keep it like it is! One person or even a group of people should not casually tamper with the very deliberate, very intentional and well thought out plan of the founders. That is one compromise I am unwilling to accept. Not only do I feel there is no reason to do it and every reason not to...I don't think his proposal is a good one...but the opposite. The electoral system is not broken, Judie. I understand that the election debacle of 2000 made people feel as if it was, but it was not. I remember when I first learned of the Electoral College...I questioned it. My own father took time to explain the process and its importance. I realized the great wisdom of the system and truly felt some amazement of the founders' accomplishment and expertise in fashioning this great nation. Then later in American History we had a very academic study in regard to itThe electoral college is a safeguard to ensure proper representation. It empowers the states and gives them a voice. It helps equalize the influence of the states so that each has appropriate and guaranteed representation even when it comes to the administrative branch of government. It also gives the states representation and some influence when it comes to judicial appointments. It is in place for a reason...an important reason. I am even more passionate about this than I am about rejecting nationalized health care. If I had to compromise...I would say take the health care and leave our electoral college system intact. __--- There is really no advantage based on party lines, Judie. Never. The candidate who wins the popular vote in the state wins the state. The concept you have seems flawed, but I think that your concept has become the norm in people of today. It has nothing to do with being Democrat or Republican. I would be surprised if the electoral votes here in OK do not all go to the Democratic candidate this year...but maybe not if Obama is the candidate. The primary indicated a strong support for Clinton. Obama is charismatic, but very inexperienced. He has only one term as Senator, I think, and half of it has been spent campaigning. He may not do as well here in OK as Clinton. However, it seems he has the ability to establish a strong following..though his ability to an actual leader is pretty much untested and unknown. I doubt he is ready for the presidency, but it looks as if he may get it. Anyway, apologies for getting carried away. This was not an attack on you. I'd talk this way to my best friends or sisters. They could attest to that!! Though that doesn't mean they are against the Electoral College. -------BTW, Judie, this state is not really predominantly Republican. Democrats, like me, just do not like the liberal direction the party has taken. The Republican Party is more representative of the ideals of those Democrats who cannot accept the liberal position the Democratic Party now has become. DAVID, CRESCENT...where are you???!!! You can explain this so much better than I can. Help!

The electoral college part still bothers me because as a Democrat in such a predominantly Republican state I don't believe my vote matters. For that reason I did not vote in the last election for the first time since I have been able to vote. So I looked up the Electoral College on Wikipedia and found this compromise that I like and would still make me think my vote counts. " Historian Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. has proposed decreasing the number of electors in the Electoral College from 538 to 436, with each state allotted the same number of votes as their number of representatives in the House of Representatives (with one vote for the District of Columbia). Each state would be required to use a winner-take-all system. Then, 102 votes would automatically be given to the winner of the national popular vote. Schlesinger felt that this would maintain the stability of a two-party system (as a winner-take-all system already does), while virtually guaranteeing that the person who wins the national popular vote would automatically win the Presidential election."

Mine was a doctor! =) I don't believe I have ever voted straight party, Judie. =)

TO CORRECT ERROR: That would be "I am not a cruel and heartless PERSON, not "program." Am I tired or what? No wonder you question my rationale! LOL =) I am not going to check for more posting errors ...I am signing off. Goodnight.

Fred, I did overdo the word “pretty.” Still, from what you said, I am not sure you really understood why. I thought you were undervaluing the great and generous philanthropic efforts that have been invaluable to millions of people, but I didn’t intend to offend you. I didn’t mean to be sarcastic, yet I can see I was. That’s not good. If we are to find answers, it will take opinions from those holding various and different perspectives working together with respect and open minds. You and I have very different perspectives. I am sure that others could offer different perspectives than we have.____ Fred, I don’t have answers on how to revamp our private health care system. I know it needs real improvement. I agree that part of that improvement is finding a viable way to deliver health care to those who are now uninsured. I just don't believe it should be done via a universal nationalized health care route. Those who form the body to decide this matter will need much more expertise than I have. I hope that they are willing to consider all options and not jsut nationalized health care. It's a "sounds good" kind of service, that I believe will actually be more costly to the American public than can be envisioned. I think it will negatively impact the delivery of quality in care and also the quantity of care received. That I believe. I believe it will create more problems than it solves and that such a system will be detrimental to all of us. ( Fred, no matter what you think I am not a cruel and heartless program. Even though I am not a socialistic in the political sense of the word, people are truly what matter. I am not anti-social services.) A proposed nationalized health care insurance program really concerns me. I cannot support it. That doesn’t mean there should not be some in-depth study and investigation into the health care system we now have. I believe that people deserve better than what they could get via a universal government plan. I could list and offer examples and support for each of my objections, point by point. However, this exchange is getting old. Surely, everyone is tiring of it by now. I am. No one really cares what I think about this. Besides, each person has his/her own vantage point and perspective. ___ Once again, I am going to explain one of my concerns. If you read my prior post, surely you noted my concern about the Social Security dilemma. Those 46 million Americans also deserve the Social Security benefits they’ve earned. No matter how small those benefits might be that money belongs to them, not to the government. In fact, it is their key to receiving health care benefits via Medicare someday in the future. (However, we need to monitor Medicare. I predict those benefits are going to undergo some reform and reductions all too soon.) .____I feel that SSA dilemma must be taken care of before we even dare to consider nationalized health care. I feel sure you know that the system will be insolvent if nothing is done. Steps need to taken to safe SSA, the sooner, the better. ____I feel sure that nationalized health care, if it covers much of anything at all, will someday become insolvent, too. Probably sooner than SSA has. Fred, I have barely scratched the surface when it comes to what I consider to be negative aspects of a national health care program. I haven’t gone into specifics. I have chiefly offered one mega reason to put the idea on hold. That being Social Security needs attention ASAP. _____ We might say those 46 million are unhappy due to being low wage owners, but that would be arrogant. But I must agree with you that those 46 million workers surely wish to “pursue” a better life, i.e., obtain health insurance, etc. (their lives may be basically very, very good! We shouldn't say their lives aren't happy and good. I don't earn a top wage either, but no one can with any accuracy that my life is not happy and good because it is. We need to remember that all honest work is honorable.We need to remember that money doesn't buy happiness.) Higher taxation is not going to help them make a better life. Sure, you can make claim that their tax rate would be too small to matter. However, high taxation does not grow an economy. High taxes will not encourage investment or expansion. Unemployment rates will climb. The 46 million who are caught without insurance will most likely be adversely affected along with everybody else. When things are not good for the people, things are not good for the nation. ___I feel that we all have a responsibility to pay our taxes….that is our civic duty. I do believe that over taxation (I believe that to accomplish universal nationalized health care would require exorbitant taxation.) is an infringement upon individual rights. We have a right to our own money. The more pay we can take home, the more apt we will be to pay our own way. That isn’t being materialistic. It is called earning a living and supporting oneself and one’s family. How many families would you suggest a man should be required to support? ___BTW Post Note: Do you know that Oklahoma has established a program called Insure Oklahoma which bridges a gap and helps employers provide insurance for workers if the business employers less than 50 workers? Right now, participation is optional. Maybe it could be made to be mandatory, but then, there we go again. …a freedom lost. Not the way to go. ______Also, there are signs everywhere in PV...signs announcing that businesses are hiring employees. Many of those businesses offer employee health insurance benefits...FYI.

C, you may be right, but I am such a die-hard Democrat that I truly believe that if I voted Republican, my great grandfather, who was a U.S. Congressman, gubernatorial candidate, and bigwig in the Democratic party would come back to haunt me. Sorry, can't take the chance.

Judie, you mentioned the importance of compromise. That got me thinking. Compromise has its place. In this year, in this election, John McCain is the candidate who best respresents a compromise between the liberal and conservative factions in America today. He is also the most experienced candidate in the race.

Compromise is important, judie! Very!

I don't think that even I support a universal health care package, but I would like to see some iniquities addressed. Recently, my daughter lost her job and was out of work for four months. COBRA would have compensated if we had had the 238. month it cost, which was impossible with her unemployed. We need some means of being able to keep coverage between jobs. Also, I knew of a couple in the military that planned on getting out at the end of his term. His wife got pregnant, but they were not allowed to get private insurance while he was in the military and the baby was born after they got out. They had to foot the entire bill which was sizeable because the baby was premature. Just a few little things like that might help to ease the tension. I've always believed in compromise.

There is a BIG difference between socialism and communism. In the late 20's my mother was a member of the socialist party in Chicago along with most of her friends. It was seen as the salvation for our country. At that time, Communism was a foreign concept. I think a little socialism is good for a country. Everything should be in moderation, liberalism, socialism or conservatism.

Today a headline in the DOK reads "$50M for OU aims to remake state medicine." In the text of the article we learn that Tulsa's George Kaiser Family Foundation has donated $50,000,000.00 to the University of Oklahoma-Tulsa to improve the state's health through "community based" medicine. ______It seems, after all, that perhaps "pretty" words spoken about good and generous people may hold some real significance.

Fred, Cyril…I caught your question. I hope you caught what Jimmy, Sandy Shores had to say. ____What better testimony could we have?_____ I believe Jimmy understands that my “pretty” words are important. The definition and action behind my “pretty” words are what made this nation great and what made it wealthy._ ___I agree with Jimmy and I admire him very much. He embodies the character that contributed to making this nation great and, thankfully, you have noted that it truly is! _______As for socialized medicine, I contend that a water downed universal health care system would actually end up denying him and others without health insurance the health care needed. It seems bound to have broad limitations, rather than broad coverage. ______I feel we would all be better off to find a different solution to the problems we face in this area...something other than a universal, nationalized health care. ____Fred, if you actually believe in keeping our American system strong, ask yourself if it really seems prudent to open wide the door to socialism is such a dramatic way. Though I realize socialism has already permeated this nation, I am still reminded of letting the fox into the hen house. I am definitely wary about turning this “house” over to the “fox.” _______ It is true that health insurance premiums have risen. It is true medical costs have risen. Inflation has an impact on everything. Yet, in the field of medical science, there has been another explosion. It is an explosion which surely is the result of our free enterprise system. Today medical technology is in its finest hour, thus far. Americans and even many who come here from abroad are benefiting from great scientific advances in the field of medicine. __ { Now, when we speak of inflation, I want to stress that we must NOT embrace the notion that is a quality and/or condition created by the present administration. That’s not so. We knew thirty years or more ago that prices were going to continue to increase on our goods and services. Those increases have come as predicted. We responded to them. Yes! And what was our major response? We stopped buying the goods our own manufacturers made. You know the rest of the story. Instead of the “Made In U.S.A.” logo, we now see “Made in China” and other similar credits on the products we buy.} ______ We knew. It was anticipated costs would rise. ____Jimmy, Sandy Shores, has already shared with us that his wife’s workplace insurance carrier has factored in the health claim “experience” of co-workers and used it as basis to increase the cost of premiums. Some of those workers have severe health issues do to poor personal life choices. Try to imagine the impact that those who are deemed uninsurable by present insurance carriers will have on taxation. The price tag for what you advocate will be staggering and then some. Already we are alarmed about the possibility of recession. Such a system could crash our economy. The tax rate required would surely fail to grow our economy. This would ultimately be harmful to all of us and our nation's security. It would also be harmful to the 46 million you are seeking to help. ____ Now, consider that there is presently a projection which will supposedly come to fruition not so many decades from now. Our government has a liability which will continue on even though very soon, our government will not be able to meet that liability. ___Yes, Fred. Consider Social Security. This program was instigated to help workers without retirement funds have income in their golden years. (A program that so many have come to depend on. Not enough, but it helps out. Remember, however, that the beneficiaries paid into the system from their own wages….which were matched by employer contributions.) However, we now are finding that workers are living longer than expected (NOW, unfortunately, THERE IS a can of worms when considered along side a national health care system.) ___ How do you feel knowing that at the some future date this fund is not going to be able to pay beneficiaries their benefits? Something must be done. It is going to require reform to save this system. The answers for doing it successfully have not yet been found. ( I do not intend to discuss the merits of any proposal to do this, whether it is a Democratic or a Republican plan. Even so, it is important to consider that system because there is an urgency for a solution and there is a relevancy to the issue of nationalized health care. And, yes, I do know about Medicare and Medicaid, but that is not what I am discussing.) Social Security is an ongoing liability _____In my opinion, it is important that before we tackle something as complex as a nationalized health care plan, we must make sure that all workers whose own earnings were/are deducted and paid into the Social Security and matched by the money of their employers will receive the benefit to which they are entitled. To do otherwise is a travesty, Fred. ___"Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness!" I believe that we are all entitled to those inherent rights. “Pursuit” is a key word here, Fred. That’s an important word. There is no mention that we are to be guaranteed to all we want and need. We have the right to pursue those things…….as long as we don’t infringe on the rights of another. Somehow it seems to me that over-taxation … the taking from the hard earned wages of some to give to others is an infringement upon the rights of those bearing the exorbitant tax. As Jimmy pointed out, withholding tax of various types impacts his net take home pay. He also shares that if he was allowed to keep more, he could meet the expense of purchasing his own health care. Jimmy has real wisdom for he understands that taking care of his own needs is best. He clearly doesn’t want to depend on the government for his health care needs. ____There is real irony in all this. Those that insist on this kind of government intervention often complain that government’s role in our national security has been too expanded. I get the drift. However, I also believe that protecting this nation is a basic role of our government. We as citizens are also supposed to defend this nation and its constitution. And, that, Fred, is precisely what I am trying to do by closing another door that seeks to take this nation much further to the left. I believe nationalized health care will compromise the health care of all citizens of this nation (but, of course, not our national leaders). I also belive it will compromise the health of this nation.

Oops! That did NOT sound the way I meant it. I am not sure I can express it right...but I don't mean that I don't think many of us would be willing to make that choice....so many of us do. However, it depends on where we are in life. Many of us have already been there and done that or whatever. It is an honorable choice and we are all indebted to those who are willing to accept that obligation. Today many women are in the military...That has not always been so. It was not a choice that was ever available to me. So, I can't know if I would have been willing or not. My mind was never conditioned to consider it. I hope I have not created misunderstanding.

Judie, I don't have an intelligent answer to your question. However, I believe the military health care system would be fine. The key, I think, is that your husband, by virture of his service, earned the privilege of that benefit. ____I don't believe many of us would be willing to make that choice. However, I suppose many of us would qualify to serve and if we were willing, then we, too, could have that health care plan.

it's true, Judie. A small, timely monthly payment will keep the colletion agency at bay. And..definitely, keeping them away is important. They go for the throat.

Judie, One thing about denials and outrageous charges; be certain to pay a bit each month to prevent it from being turned over to a collection agency. The hospitals seem to work with people attempting to pay and I believe they are not allowed to charge interest or penalties. Some will settle for far less than what they are requesting just as they do with "network" insurance companies including Medicare. But once they turn the bill over to collection, the gloves come off. I'm not sure how collection agencies handle it anymore since harassment laws have been enacted. If your daughter can make even a $5 per month payment, with inflation the $2000 will be seemingly easier to handle. I have some numbers for charitable organizations but right now I can't locate them for help with children's expense. I can't even find Bill Gates right now or remember what he and Warren Buffet support.

It is a foregone conclusion, unless he suddenly is stricken ill--then you can bet Romney will jump right back in and battle Huckabee. McCain is a remarkable person, really fits the definition of a "heroe" unlike all the sports figures. But he has some big faults-- his temper, his blindness towards the middle east, wanting to bomb Iran and supporting our invasion. So I won't be voting for him, will have to support Obama, unless Hillary wiggles her way in-then I hope for a third choice.

I've asked this question before and never gotten an intelligent rebuttal. I have had free medical through the military almost all of my adult life. It has been very good to us. Of course, it's not perfect, but what is. My 5 year old granddaughter, who has private health insurance, was sent to a sleep clinic and the doctor checked and said it would be covered. But after it was over, the claim was denied. An appeal was fruitless and my daughter was stuck with a $2000. bill. Why couldn't a system that is good enough for the people who are protecting your way of life be good enough for everyone?

C, apparently the "pretty" words must have struck a chord with you since you've referenced it a few times in some of your post. That was not my intention. But again, I ask, what does all that mean in relation to the 46 million without insurance? Will Kaiser's 50 million do anything about it? No. You mentioned the "Pursuit" word. The people who don't work or are under the poverty level already have medicaid. The 46 million are those working for low wages who for whatever reason just can't afford healthcare. But I bet if you asked them, they are trying to pursue a better life for themselves and their kids. I don't see any compassion in just saying, "Well too bad, your parents just don't make enough money for health insurance, so you are just outta luck." When the truth is, if the parents were not working, the kids would be covered by medicaid. It is a catch 22 for those families who are just above the federal poverty guidelines.

McCain is not my favorite, but compare him to Obam and Hilly. That makes McCain a no brainer.

I suppose if any place some of these comments would probably be more on topic about strokes but the Nursing Homes are what I see as a major problem. As gail,Bethany told, her dear father was beaten in the V.A. in Norman and she had to take him out and died a couple of weeks ago. I believe with AARP Secure Horizons along with Medicare someone is only allowed 110 days in a Nursing Home. Even Superman ran out of money and Robin Williams picked up the tab. A person has to be destitute to get Medicade and unfortunately too many of the Nursing Homes are understaffed and many of the workers don't care or are incompetant. With all too many patients, the suffering such as Gail's dad was subjected to is common. Too many of our citizens needlessly seem to "joy-ride" in an ambulance to an E.R. wher a regular visit to a family Md. or Pediatrician would suffice. I have a number for "Kids Now Insurance"-877-543-7669 that provided low cost insurance for children. I don't know if it is still a working number.Low cost insurance for adults was 800-741-2680. The worst place agewise seems to be from 60-65 where most companies drop as many as they can and the rest try to load their policies with riders. I've been away from Insurance information for over 30 years so I'm not too up to date anymore.

Jimmy, you expressed your opinion very well and I respect your point of view. My take is this: You and I pay taxes for roads and bridges and infrastructure. We pay taxes for police & fire, our military, etc to have protection. You've already alluded we are also already paying taxes for medicaid and medicare which covers a very large demographic of our citizens. So why should it have to be so different for healthcare? Why should we have to pay exhorbant premiums to companies that are more than willing to take our money but will do everything that they possibly can do deny the claims? Universal healthcare via a single-pay system would eliminate the middleman, in this case, the insurance companies. Look at the billions of dollars that would save. I'm all for capitalism as much as the next guy. But I do have a problem with HMO's and insurance companies who get to play god with ordinary people because they are always looking to improve their bottom line. You mentioned that if you didn't have to pay the taxes for medicaid and medicare that you could by your own insurance. Don't be so sure about that. Premiums have tripled and quadrupled over the past 10 years or so, not to mention benefits that have been cut and the increase in co-pays and deductibles. Heck, I don't know if there is any one single answer to this problem. Perhaps we could have some kind of blending of the two. I just feel that folks like you should at least have access to healthcare, even if it was government run.

Fred, I fall into that category of Americans with no health care & I will say it again. Universal health care is not the answer. Someone has to pay for it, if they would just let me keep the money I am paying out for medicare & medicaid I could afford to buy insurance. Somebody is paying for medicare it didn't come free from the government it comes out of my check & many other peoples as well. I just can't see having to pay more for a health care plan that is less than ideal. The government may be spending billions on research for diseases, but think about how many privately funded places that are doing this as well, if you take more money from people they will have to cut back on contributions. The government doesn't put a dent in the kind of medical care that the private sector does. Go to a VA hospital & then compare them to a hospital like Mercy or Baptist. This is the same thing you will get with a Universal health care system, ask the elderly how great the medicare is . When I do have to go to the doctor, in his office in the examining rooms there is a very long list of items that medicare will not cover & this will be the case with Universal plan as well. I want a way that I can afford to have the best of care. I know this is not worded well & my thoughts are jumbled but hopefully you can understand what I am trying to say. Government is cold & private is better I think this is what I am trying to say.

C, your belief in the goodness of the human spirit is admirable. Which is why I'm surprised that you are so dead set against universal health care. First of all, we already have it. It's called medicare and medicaid. The problem is the 46 million americans without health care who don't have it either because they can't afford it or they don't qualify for either of the government programs. We are the greatest, wealthiest country on earth. Yet nearly 1/6th of our total population do without when it comes to healthcare. That is a travesty. The government has already funded billions of dollars to fight diseases like cancer. Why would you think any of that would change with universal healthcare? We are quickly headed to where only the elites (very rich people)will ever be able to afford decent healthcare. Lobbyist for Big Pharma, insurance companies, and HMO's are making sure of that. So where is the Christian principles, civility and compassion for the 46 million who have to pray every night that they or their children don't get sick? Those are all nice, pretty words. But in the end, they won't pay the bills for over 46 million people will they?

This afternoon I had an opportunity to read part of an insert in yesterday's Sunday Oklahoman. Hundreds of Oklahomans gave $2,000,000.00 to build Mercy Cancer Resource Center. Tell me that people don't care...that people are uncaring....that people are only self-serving....I won't believe you. Of course, some are. Many are extremely materialistic. Yet, whether anyone is willing to admit it or accept the truth of it, this nation was founded on principles born of the Christian faith. That basis has made a positive impact and allowed this nation's people to have great civility...and great compassion ...and great generosity. When people have freedom of choice, they are inspired to achieve greater heights, but not only for their own purpose and personal gain....it is not greed or materialism that stimulated the generosity of those who saw and met this need. We should not embrace political philosophies that diminish that important quality. It does not seem prudent to support a form of government that takes from its people via exorbitant taxation and redistributes in various ways to others. It is important to allow people to have what is theirs. Goodness can be found in the hearts of men and women...a goodness that is selfless and is committed to helping mankind.....here and abroad. I have noticed that often some who post here seem to resent those who have wealth. But why? Government cannot be everything to all people and do the job well....it cannot provide everything we need. Do you really believe that people will respond to needs like donating $2,000,000.00 to build something like Mercy Cancer Resource Center if we have nationalized health care? If not, how will such a need be met? Or will it?

Concerned, my experience in the health field is strictly volunteer work... I am certainly no expert in assessing the problems and finding the answers.

Thanks, Concerned.....I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your sharing that information._______I would like to emphasize that I do not believe that the example you offered in regard to "kickback" type bonuses to doctors by the pharmaceutical companies applies in my case. You would have to understand more about my particular situation. Many protocols were used. One worked. The compound was the same...the crystal size was different. I would say the efficacy was the thing! The problem versus the solution required the medication NOT in generic form. _______ My doctor had my best interest at heart, not his own. Of that I am quite sure. __________That kind of dedication is another reason I am not for nationalized health care. Doctors such as mine are already few and far between. ________ Concerned, my work in the health care field has given me some enlightenment. Some doctors are already beginning to turn down non- established Medicare patients. Why? Medicare allowable is always the primary insurance. It sets the price for services and its allowable is always quite low. Even if a person has secondary insurance, the Medicare allowable is all that can be paid. That is one reason the cost of care is so high. Non-Medicare patients must must up the difference ...in other words, you and I and others must make up the deficit that Medicare creates...Medicare and other social services or non paying consumers. Also, Medicare is pushing back allowable testing. For example, it used to be the norm for colonoscopies to be allowed every 5 years. medicare now sets the time lapse at 10 years. With early detection, colon cancer can be cured. Even for a slow growing cancer, ten years seems uncomfortably long. ________I know we need some reform, but I don't believe nationalized health care is the answer. I believe that post I made earlier..."survival of the fittest" might come to fruition in the most strict sense of the term. Already it seems that a protocol may be at hand which says the elderly are a dispensable part of society. I mean that. There are trends in that direction. _______ Thank you for helping me understand better the chemistry involved in medications. I appreciated hearing from you!

C,PV I've enjoyed reading your posts, and thought you might like a little more information about generic vs. brand prescription medication. The metabolically active chemical in both is the same, usually from different manufacturers because the drug patent has expired. The things that are different in the generics are the fillers, called excipients. Most people will never notice a difference in the efficacy of the drug, but some individuals will. The reason is the excipeints can affect absorption of the drug. The drug may be more poorly absorbed or more readily absorbed & that would affect a person’s response to the medication. Your doctor may also have something to gain from your strict use of a brand drug. The sales rep for that brand makes bonuses from high sales in their service area. Doctors prescribing their brand will boosts the sales. (National databases monitor the trends.) In order to promote products, pharma reps supply sample packs of medication to the doctors, buy lunches for the doctor's office staff, give away pens, notepads, cups, bags, etc. with the company’s new product & sometimes even provide tickets to local events, as a token of their thanks. Although not practiced much anymore, pharma reps used to provide family vacations to some of their 'best' customers. Although the vast majority of doctors do not prescribe medication where it isn’t needed, sometimes these doctors will preferentially subscribe brand drugs to help out their sales reps. Here’s a 2005 publication, from the Annals of Family Medicine, about the ethics of the doctor-pharma rep relationship. (www.annfammed.org/cgi/content/full/3/1/82) It comments that these issues have been part of medical ethics discussions since the early 60’s.

TO CLARIFY: That is, the appropriate response is NOT socialism. _______ It is also NOT refusing to keep our enemies in check. Their investment becomes our debt. We can't repay them. I have no doubt all they would ask of us is to do the same for this nation, for our descendants...and for humanity. God Bless America! Goodnight!

I fear you are right about the incentive to foster independence, JH. Back in the early 60's, I had such a conversation with my dad who lived through the crash. Wow! That was the greatest generation! I understand why the terrorists consider us easy prey! Not those folks! If not for them....well, this would be a far different world. We owe it to them to have a proper response to the threats and challenges we now face. It isn't socialism.

I fear you are right about the incentive to foster independence, JH. Back in the early 60's, I had such a conversation with my dad who lived through the crash. Wow! That was the greatest generation! I understand why the terrorists consider us easy prey! Not those folks! If not for them....well, this would be a far different world. We owe it to them to have a proper response to the threats and challenges we now face. It isn't socialism.

Jimmy, Sandy Shores, good post!

In an earlier post, there is an error. I meant to say "Governments cannot love." Just FYI, not that anybody really cares! (I happened to see I'd done that a few minutes ago and my mistake really bugged me!)

Melissa...I didn't intend for it to "feel" like a kick in the butt....truly. I sometimes am too passionate, I suppose. However, I am in awe of the selflessness and dedication of those unsung heroes that no one hears much about....spending their lives in research for the good of all humanity. America has been a fertile ground for such work. I don't want that to change, nor do I want medical research to decline. The progress has been amazing and I hope it continues. Maybe you or someone you love will have a pill someday that can prevent the suffering and heartache of Alzheimer's. In the beginning, that medication...perhaps for many years...well be costly. Someday it will likely become for affordable...but that may depend on the structure and how difficult it is to produce. There are all kinds of chemical interactions,inhibitors, reactors, (things I know little about and someone is going to catch me using a wrong terminology here.!)...but anyway, what I am trying to say is to stablize an active ingredient so that it will be effective could increase production costs. _____Melissa, I want to tell you something more ...my doctor once told me never, never accept a generic for a particular medication I needed. He had nothing to gain by this instruction, but I did. You see, he explained that in this particular medication, although the compound contained the same ingredients, the make-up of the generic contained smaller crystals which rendered the pill much less effective. He explained that I would not receive the necessary therapy from the generic even though it would be touted as the same. The size of the crystals affected the way the medication worked.____Like Jimmy, Sandy Shores, said here and we have been told along life's way....you get what you pay for._________Thanks for your note...I appreciated hearing from you. Again...I didn't mean to chastise you. BTW: I congratulate you for adding OMRF to your list! After writing that, I decided this afternoon I am going to increase my donation...I inspired myself to do that because I felt it sounded like a paltry amount. It is easy to cut out something here or there. Like you, I have a donation list. There is always a need somewhere for some cause....and every little bit helps, especially when mulitplied by the gifts of others. Keep up the good work, Melissa! =) Cheers!

Thanks Concerned. Most people who want to gripe or complain about people on public assistance have no earthly idea of how the system and programs have changed over the last several years....

Illegals are not sucking the welfare system dry and I don't care what kind of false documentation they have. There is a system in place with INS called SAVE which includes every resident alien ( with a green card) in this country. Every suspected alien, legal or illegal is run through SAVE if they apply for benefits in this state. If the report comes back from INS that they are not a legal resident, then obviously they don't get squat....The workers in the local county offices don't make the final determination on these people, INS does. Even a legal alien resident with a green card has to prove they've been here for at least 5 years before they can be considered for benefits like food stamps....People like Randy Terrel have made a lot of hay by perpetuating myths like this....

C of PV, thank you for the link to Ok Med Research. I think I'm definitely going to add it to my donation list along with red cross, ywca, and women for women international.________Also, thank you for the kick in the butt about national debt. I have now been thoroughly schooled in it after the five hour discussion this afternoon with my husband about how its not any president's fault, they really have no power in economics, and that we all suck for buying from walmart and allowing sub prime mortgage reselling to retirement funds and lots of other things that effect our economy, etc. lol. I have had quite the afternoon of learning global economics. So thank you again for kicking off the learning experience :D

Great post, Fred. I have many friends who work or worked TANF caseloads. They tell me exactly what you have written. Thanks for posting it.

Jimmy, if you are a republican who advocates sex-ed and making birth control (condoms & pills) readily available to young people, then you sir are in the minority of your party. I commend you for taking that stance. As far as 'fixing welfare', PRWORA took a huge step in doing that in 1996. AFDC was replaced by TANF (Temporary Aid to Needy Families) which contains a 60 month cap on lifetime benefits. No more entitlements. I've seen first hand how the generational welfare cycle was effectively ended. To receive TANF, the single parent must participate a minimum of 30hrs per week in some work related activity. If they don't fulfill these obligations without good cause, the case is closed. BTW, a family of two on TANF gets a check for a whopping $225.00 dollars per month in this state. For every additional child you can add about $70.00 bucks to the check. Hopefully that should end the myth that welfare recipients keep having more kids just for the money. $70.00 dollars per month doesn't go very far with a newborn....What I'm seeing now is more minor parents (13, 14, 15, etc, years old having babies and coming in to sign up for TANF. By the time they reach 19 or 20 they've exhausted their benefits. Babies having babies. That's one of the biggest problems we have now.

Cale, I will try to answer the question you asked the best way I know how. I am sure by now that you have figured out that I am a Republican & that being said has nothing to do with my stance on abortion, life is life & it isn't up to me or you or any other human to end the life of someone just because we don't think they should be here. I guess maybe you should just remove the Republican lable & call me conservative. You hold people back when you enable bad behavior & the welfare sytem is needed in some cases but it needs to be fixed so that generation after generation do not come to rely on it . I said it starts at home & it does. I strongly believe that it is ok to talk about sex education in school & I even go further by saying that I think it's ok to hand out the birth control & the condom to some kid who may not tell a parent they are sexually active. As for who will take care of the unwanted children Cale we all do this through our taxes. This is why I say put a limit on it (welfare) . NO it will not fix it today, but maybe in the future. There are no great answers off of the top of my head ,but I know killing children isn't an option for me. It is also possible that they make it very difficult to adopt a child & maybe they should look at that system & see if they could ease some of the restrictions they have . I would adopt a child if my wife were in agreement with me on it, we always have a little more than we need. But again welfare needs to be fixed. I have no problem paying for someone's daycare so that they can work or go to school & I have no problem feeding any child if the parent is made to work. So you should probably take the lable off of the Republicans & put it where it goes, on my back or someone that agrees that welfare is not ok & abortion is not ok. But when it comes to choosing life I will always choose life over death & if I have to pay for it then I will. The Republican in me does believe in the death sentence though for anyone that murders or hurts a child I will even give the injection . So in one breath I condemn abortion & in another I am willing to kill the guy that comitted the crime against the innocent. After reading this I may just need my head examined & before you agree with me , clean up your own back porch before you worry about mine.

Hi, Cale! =) Yeah! We need rain here, too! _______Malthusian Nightmare! I sure hope I was not!! No, not really, Cale....it was, in part, figurative. I am really sensitive to the suffering of others.

Cale...people do open up their wallets and help these kids. Many of us contribute to faith based organizations. Many church denominations provide sponsorship of many social programs....including care for children. It doesn't stop there. A percentage of everything I give to my church goes this kind of support. In doing it in this way, I am assured the money will end up used as intended. Moreover, I receive reports, can make visits and representatives and administrators can be invited to come and make report. I see videoes....I hear witnesses. You see, there are those who might also reach further than into their pocketbooks, but spend time volunteering. Government can give love. People can. People do. One way they do it is through their church organization. You are overlooking a huge benefactor for children ...and others in need.

You're absolutely right about sex ed. JH. Side note to C, someone else wants rain. Ha. inside joke.

C, Are you advocating the Malthusian Nightmare? Thomas Malthus a social philosopher in the 1700's said that for every mouth we feed today, we will have to kill 100 tomorrow. Everyone want to deal in a world that does not exist. No one will answer the question of exactly WHO will pay for these children and subsequently adults as well. 50 million unwanted people in a country of only 300 million today. I'm listening to the first person to tell me who will not who ought to. Again, it seems to be the people most dead set against taking care of people that want there to be 50 million more to take care of. I'm listening! But tomorrow, I'm off now.

C.PV...Will we have to experience another Great Depression for independence to foster itself and grow. I hope not, but think so. Cale...I agree with your points...the pro-lifers want the children born, but hang-up out to dry if they become throw away kids that no one wants...do we need to do a better job of educating parents/prospective parents? Wait, that same group that are pro-life will say that schools have no part in sex education...Folks, have a great week and pray for rain for those of us in the southwest part of the state...

Cale, Your argument just doesn't wash. Yes, I expect people to be responsible for getting pregnant men as well as women . No child should be killed just because some idiot out there decided to breed. I do not think any party be it Democrat or Republican should dole out the welfare to anybody. Personally the sooner they cut-off welfare programs the better off most people would be. For instance it might stop the welfare cycle & people might think twice if they didn't have the welfare system to bail them out of bad situations. Put a 1 year limit on welfare & do not allow more money if you have more kids it sounds cruel but I bet it would slow down the pregnancy rate & another thing maybe a parent should teach their kid about birth control instead of thinking they have a bunch of little saints on their hands. If a person is raped , having the child & giving it up for adoption is a good choice the person raped has already been through the trauma why kill the child it wont make it go away (mentally). Sorry I have to run & I know I need punctuation but just no time.

Jimmy, my pants have been zipped. I have 3 children and they were all wanted and taken care of financially and emotionally. I am not interested in adopting 1, 2 or 3 more so if I'm going to be "pro-life" I am going to have to be willing to basically take care of some of those children financially. Are you really serious about making a mother and or father rear a child that they do not want? I see those kids everyday and so do you. You, me nor the government is going to make people responsible so so the three of us are going to have to take care of that child. My original statement stands that most republicans are not pro-life, meaning that they are WILLING to take financial responsibility for these unwanted children so in-fact, they are only pro-birth! Until I see the party pushing for AFDC, free child care, free medical care for children etc. then the party simply wants to punish mothers for getting pregnant. Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

Fred, With all due respect the illegals can & do get welfare by having false documentation, it happens everyday. Judie I have made the same statement you just made a million times my wording was not quite as well as yours but, I was chastized because I said that even if when get a new president we will not be loved by other countries because of who & what we stand for. Sometimes I want to run up & down the street like a nut job & just scream why can't it be like it was when I was growing up? Change is good but extremism does not work for anyone . We have the right to practice any religion we wish , but when they started taking Christian values out of the equasion it started falling apart. America has a million problems but almost all could be fixed starting right there in your own home with the raising of your children. Sorry for any wrong spelling I have to hurry the wife is on her way home & I don't have my chores done. C, PV I envy your ability to speak so well !! I am still opposed to government handouts the only time I condone this would be in the case of a child in need & then you would have to prove it to me.

I hate to burst bubbles, but as an AF dependent for 28 years, I've lived in three foreign countries and travelled to many more. Most do not want to come to this country. Those that are Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist see the Indurstialized world as Unholy. That constitutes more than 70% of the world population. I myself wonder how we have strayed so far from the traditional Christian values of 3 or 4 generations ago. I'm not for doctrine determining laws but I do wish that those values were exhibited by more Americans. Hence, my statement that it is a shame that money is the prime motivator in this country as opposed to just wanting to do something good. There even seems to be the idea of "prosperity preaching" taking hold which is contrary to everything that I was taught in Sunday School as a child. It seems people don't consider themselves successful unless they've been able to amass wealth. That is what bothers me, how we now put more of a monetary value on peoples accomplishments than their humanitarian ones. I am beginning to see a swing away from that, tho, and that is what gives me hope for my grandchildren's future.

TO CLARIFY: The statement "The private system of health care" is not to be confused with health insurance. His health insurance benefit did not provide a drop in the bucket toward his medical costs (some of which are ongoing). Insurance can be maxed out, BTW. Has anyone considered what might happen costwise if national health insurance coverage has no cap? Think about it!

TO CLARIFY: His wife and one other employee were all who were involved in her small business.

Jimmy you actually made some good points in your previous post. I've said all along that if more birth control was practiced there would be a lot less abortions. Too many adults want to stick their heads in the sand and pretend teenagers aren't having sex. Oklahoma in annually in the top 5 for teenage pregnancies. Obviously something needs to change. BTW, illegal aliens can't receive welfare in Oklahoma. No food stamps, no check, no medical. The only exception is if the illegal is pregnant, the state will pay for the birth only. No pre-natal, no post-partum. And please don't get me started on how Big Pharma is sticking it to the average american. Big Pharma and the insurance companies have basically made it impossible for anyone to have quality health care.

Thanks, Jimmy. Wish it weren't so long. There was more to say. I understand your plight..no insurance. I admire your values. _________It seems important to remember that sometimes it is because of people's bad choices that the rest of us suffer.... _____If this nation sacrifices private insurance to appease those who cry out for this government handout, it will be a very bad choice for America and for Americans. ______You will have health care that you don't now have, Jimmy. However, it won't be worth much to you. Like Brett said, forget that $8,600 shot. Nationalized health care may end up cheap when it comes to monetary output, but it will be extreme in cost when it comes to actual health care. I wonder if scientific research will remain strong and healthy. _______This nation was not established so that its hard working citizens would be required to handover what was theirs so that the government could redistribute it. _______When we stop to consider the example you offered at your wife's workplace, it seems that it should be obvious is the "experience" of claim costs for said individuals drove up the costs of insurance premiums and made them prohibitive..(you can't cover a family,etc.)..that if the entire nation is covered by the government we will receive inferior and limited service and care and/or taxation will become unbearable. That seems to be an obvious poor choice. _______There will always be con men who will be willing to sell us what we believe we want..but then we find out we have been short-changed. _____ Of course, you are right. We do get what we pay for!! ________ I know a man who was also self-employed. His wife had a small business. The health insurance they had was not much good. He was critically injured in an explosion. After months of hospitalization and many surgeries, he survived. His care and recovery required intensive and extreme medical attention. He got it. His survival is considered miraculous. He has been left with health issues....from which he will never be free. His choice was to go back to work..even though his days are filled with pain. He pays his own way...even in small increments. He doesn't live luxuriously....he knows what matters most. He feels fortunate to be alive. And, indeed, he is! ________I feel certain that had we been under a national health care system, he would be dead. I feel positive that the limitations to the coverage allotted him would fall far short of his needs. Please remember, that the health policy they had was quite limited, as well. The difference? The private system of health care allowed him what he required. _______Like you, Jimmy, Sandy Shores, I yearn for to pass the opportunity and the privilege and the right of self determination to my children, my grandchildren and theirs. I understand that self-determination equals freedom. I understand that it equates to individual choice. I understand that it means that government's role does not intrude into our private lives. I am saddened to consider that those who follow us may never experience the basic freedom of making a choice when it comes to their own health care. With nationalized health care will come a very sad and regressive time in this nation's history. The price tag is higher than so many think! _____Thanks, too, for sharing your thoughts, Jimmy. Here's to good health!

I have to correct a statement I made When I said I was pro-choice. I meant to write that I was PRO-LIFE. Melissa one more thought I understand that you are probably a pretty responsible person with your finances, but how many welfare recipients & illegal immigrants & people with bad credit anyway really care if they have good credit?? Most are living off of your dime & mine. Just another reason the health care system is failing.

C, PV, You did a wonderful job of answering Melissa's question. As Forest Gump would put it I'm not a smart man but I am smart enough to know that you get what you pay for. Government health care would be very generic to say the least. Obama has a plan that he says is better than Hillary's, I have heard hers as well, she will make it mandatory that you have health care even if you can't afford it , supposedly Obama will lower the price so you can afford it. To go into effect his first year in office. So if these people are hell bent on universal healthcare Obama has the better plan. As I stated below it's not the answer, I am only one vote & can't stop it , so at this point I feel like I just have to sit back & watch. I have no health care ,they offer it at my wifes job but due to a couple of people with severe drinking problems & one with a death (after a liver transplant) caused from the drinking. The insurance is so expensive you cant afford to cover the whole family. I am self employed & it would cost me 450.00 a month to just cover myself. I do agree that prescriptions should have a cap on them, but that being said I understand that money has to be made in order for a business to stay in business. I want everyone to have insurance, myself included but I feel like the problem lies with the people that smoke, diabetics, drinking problems & generally people who do not take care of themselves, it drives the cost up for the employer who has no choice but to pass it on to the employee. One thing for sure is you are right on target with the ambulance chasing attorneys & people that will file suit at the drop of a hat just for the free money, What the hell has happened to Americans ?? Where is the self reliance & pride? To the people who read these forums I say things sometimes that don't quiet say what I mean or they come out wrong . I care about these issues just as you do & I want things to be good for everyone but I will not stand up & blame this on the President of the United States (BUSH) We all have personal responsibilties that we are not living up to. If my money goes to China it's because I didn't read the box & bought something from China . If my job goes to China it's because some greedy businessman want's cheap labor & won't pay you the American to do it. To Fred , You damned straight I'm pro-choice it's called responsibility. To many people find it easy to breed & kill a child because they didn't wear a condom & the father doesn't want to pay the child support or their life might be inconvenienced by a child. Keep your pant's zipped Fred & Cale & there should be no need for Abortion ever!!!!! Try a birth control pill girls they work!!!

Melissa...Please find below ( and just after yours to Jimmy,Sandy Shores, and Brett, Yukon) my post to you (and others) in regard to the cost of medication. It is long, but it is my hope that it will be helpful. Thank you.

To correct first statement in prior post: Melissa...I do not agree with you that President Bush is responsible for "putting our country in debt to China and other countries."

Melissa....President Bush is not responsible for putting our country in debt to China. It is certainly not that simple. Over-simplification seems to be a major problem with too many people. The result of that kind of thinking will usually result in an inaccurate or unjust conclusion.

http://www.omrf.org/ _________Check it out! Great things are happening so that more can live longer...and with good quality of life.

Melissa, Oklahoma City....Your vantage point has limited your perspective! The claim about the cost of pharmaceuticals...medication...is short-sighted and uneducated. Some medicine is very high. Some is not. I understand why you and others complain. However, I also understand the basis for the expense.________Let's THINK for a minute. There is a reason, but to understand why, it is necessary for us to use our own reasoning ability. I understand it is easier and more popular to simply complain. I am asking you to try to do better than that._________Right here in Oklahoma, we can find an example of why medication is high, why it stays high for many years, and why it then becomes more affordable. ______________I offer to you the website of Dr. Jordon Tang,Ph.D. ___________ biohttp://www.omrf.org/OMRF/Research/08/TangJLay.asp_________________Dr. Tang is NOT dedicated to materialism. He is a scientist, dedicating his life to a higher calling for all of humanity. He has dedicated his life to finding the causes and cures of diseases which afflict mankind and destroy the quality of life...or end it._______For over twenty years, Dr. Tang has been involved in finding the cause and cure of Alzheimer's. This is no simple process. It costs a lot of money...big money. It takes a huge investment of time. Sometimes such a scientist reaches a dead end and must begin again. ________If discovery of cause if found, then the tedious, pain-staking task of finding the way to stop it begins. Then another laborious process begins...what can alter the course of the disease. You can't just go to the cookbook, Melissa, and get a recipe. You can't just run over to Homeland or WalMart, Melissa, and pick up a package of mix ...the scientific process is much greater, more demanding, more challenging, more specific, more tedious than anything your or I have ever been involved in. Moreover, you can't just serve it to your husband or your company and call it good. You have to make sure you get it right! __________Do you get the picture, Melissa? _____Let me tell you a little about Dr. Tang's work. It would be preferable to visit Oklahoma Medical Research website and find for yourself (it will be but a snapshot, but a good one). Dr. Tang has been engaged in finding the cause and cure for Alzheimer's for over 20 years. In 1999, he found a bre