Chris, you continue to absolutely ignore the FACT that there is no such thing as a former homosexual, it is an absolutely proven FACT that a gay person CANNOT change their orientation, and it's absolutely offensive and sacreligious and blasphemous to claim that the change that Christ causes in peoples' lives, which IS real, includes changing sexual orientation, which is NOT.
It's also just sleazy and immoral to say that Christ didn't say a word about homosexuality, but that He didn't "endorse" it either, which is foolish. Christ never said "It's OK to be left-handed" that doesn't make it a sin.
We're back where we started, which is that some things are just facts beyond dispute. People do NOT choose to be gay. And a person who is gay cannot EVER change that and become heterosexual. Ever. This is a proven fact. The Bible never ONCE mentions homosexuality or calls is a "sin," and since it's not an action, not a choice, and doesn't harm anyone how CAN it be a sin?

A person can reject the hateful lies of the radical religious right and still be every single bit as faithful a Christian...in fact, more so. The story of the Good Samaritan illustrates this perfectly, where people placing obscure old purity codes ahead of caring for another person in need were very much like those who care more about obscure Levitican "law" than about the very real harm homophobia's causing to gay people.

You need to get away from the extremely small number of people who've been desperately misled by these sinful shams and see REAL gay people, the millions who are harmed and insulted by the lie of "cures" for homosexuality.

I liked your response, Darren. Unfortunately I don't have an internet link for the information stating APA recognizes 30 human sexual orientations. But if I find one, I'll be sure to pass it along. This is from written material I have which lists all of the orientations including apotemnophilia, asphyxophilia, antogynephilia, bisexuality, coprophilia, etc. I'm not trying to twist anything when I quoted information provided by APA. It may be possible they could offer information you may not agree with. I'm basically wanting to discuss with you about this and find a viewpoint that differs from mine. I'm sorry if I offended you for saying you are abrasive. I guess I interpret abrasiveness from your responses because of the all caps you're using and accusations of me saying I'm equating homosexuals and child molesters, which isn't my viewpoint or my intention whatsoever. You gave a great response this time, though, that was helpful in regards to you saying "as for pedophilia being 'legitimate,' so long as it's nothing but an 'orientation,' where no action is taken, that's not a problem." I respecfully disagree, though, because I also think change could occur for someone who is a pedophile and prevent them from ever becoming a child molester. But please don't confuse my view and say I think homosexuals are equivilant to child molesters. That is not in my heart at all, and I know there is a great difference. And let me also be sure you know where I'm coming from on another aspect. I don't believe it's a "cure," when someone who was homosexual converts to heterosexual. And just as you say Jesus never says a single word about homosexuality, I believe that benefits my perspective. Jesus didn't promote homosexuality either. But Jesus does offer a message of change. He says to deny ourself and follow him. In the Bible, everybody who came to Jesus became a different person when they chose to follow him. This is my story as well as the story of others, including those who profess to no longer be homosexuals.

"Hi Darren, you gave a lot of information. I'll try to respond as best as I can. Basically you're saying that sexual orientation is either heterosexual or homosexual. However, since you respect APA,"


Do you not?

Or do you only when they put out information you can exploit or twist to serve your own purposes?

"I discovered they acknowledge 30 human sexual orientations."


Link, please. There are gay people and straight people, there are bi=sexual people with somewhere in between. There are NOT 30 sexual orientations. You're talking about designations for something NOT the same as heterosexuality or homosexuality, evidently.

"So let's take this in segments. Help me understand, and I'm sincerely seeking answers, how is it that the APA acknowledges pedophilia as a legitimate sexual orientation and you won't?"


First, I didn't say I didn't. I said it's NOT the same as homosexuality or heterosexuality, and that comparisons (especially yours, meant ONLY to imply that gays were like pedophiles and a danger to our children, which is sleazy and wrong) weren't valid.

As for pedophilia being "legitimate," so long as it's nothing but an "orientation," where no action is taken, that's not a problem. People who molest children belong in jail, period. Child molestation is a crime with victims, that is not the case for heterosexuality or homosexuality or any sex act with CONSENTING adults in either catagory.
I'm still absolutely baffled as to why this is even being brought up EXCEPT to imply that gays will rape your sons if you turn your back on them for a second. Why even bring it up? What's the point?

"Please notice I don't call you names or try to put you in any stereotype or have a harsh spirit at all."


Hogwash. Every WORD of what you're saying is being done with the purpose in mind of promoting hate and lies. You WANT people to believe that homosexuality can be "cured" even though it's a proven FACT it cannot. And you want people to equate homosexuality and molestation in their minds. If that's not harsh, I'm the Easter Bunny. Yeah, you've been respectful to me and I've said I appreciate that but there's a point at which the evil and untruth of what you're saying is what has to be addressed. I'm not going after other people because they weren't nice, I couldn't care less about the people there, that's not the POINT, the point is the ideas, the things being said, not who said them. This isn't a personal thing good or bad, it's about what's being said in the post, not the poster.

"I want to discuss this with you respectfully, and I'm sincerely seeking answers from you."

I don't think you are at all. Why do you ONLY "respect" the APA when they supposedly say something you can find useful, while refusing over and over to acknowledge the FACT that sexual orientation cannot be changed. You want APA to be credible when it suits you, and not when it doesn't.
And if it seems like I"m being harsh, tough. I care about the people who are being beaten and killed, driven from homes, discriminated against, hated, driven to suicide, and so forth a lot more than those on the radical religious right having to deal with the "harsh" language of being attacked with vicious truths.

Chris,

There is absolute proof that a homosexual can NOT change their orientation. The APA is absolutely firm in saying that not only can this change NOT occur, but that it's dangerous and destructive to attempt it. The LIE that people can be "cured" of their sexual orientation exists ONLY so that homophobia and hate can have an excuse.
But for pointing out these facts I'M being abrasive? Spare me. The lies you and the rest of the radical right spread about gay people destroy lives and get people killed. If upright unapologetic truth is so "abrasive" to you then I'd say you need to receive more abrasions. You continue to spout this "Change is possible" garbage in the face of absolute proof that it is NOT. There is STILL no such thing as a former homosexual.
Yes, people can get Jesus in their life and yes, it's a great thing. But it never once caused a SINGLE gay person to "turn straight," nor should anyone expect it to since Jesus doesn't and didn't view homosexuality as a sin, He never said a single word on the subject.

It's not just that you're wrong, it's that the wrong information you're spreading is dangerous and hateful, existing only for the worst possible purposes, to harm others while pretending to help them.

Hi Paula, I think you provide an excellent theory. What's interesting is if I were to offer a similar analogy, Darren or others who are abrasive when discussing homosexuality would accuse me of trying to belittle the issue or would call me something harsh. I try to make comparisons or analogies and get shut down for insulting homosexuality by comparing it to food interests or whatever. I think we do agree that it can be possible for change to occur. That's what I get from your theory. Of course, we don't agree on other issues about homosexuality. But here's where I want to make sure about something. Change can happen to anybody, not just homosexuals. I've seen major changes happening to people after they accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. And anyone, no matter who they are, can see change happening in their life. I know I have. The Bible states that if anyone is in Christ, they are a new creation. The old way of living and the old habits are gone, and a new way of living and a new perspective on life has come. The numbers could be on your side, but that could also be because change is not easy. Change can be very difficult to occur, but it's not impossible. Thank you for discussing with me, Paula. I enjoyed reading your theory. It helped me understand your perspective, and I enjoy exchanging thoughts with you.

I do think it's possible for people to fool even themselves into believing they've changed. I've certainly ignored certain things in my own life when I was in denial of them. I stuffed them as far down as possible and refused to acknowledge them at all. Let me share with you a theory of mine that I've been using for a few years now. Let's say your favorite food is pepperoni pizza. Let's say your least favorite food is liver and onions. You can refrain from eating pepperoni pizza for the rest of your life, but that doesn't mean you have stopped liking it. Additionally, you may decide for whatever reason to start eating liver and onions every day. That doesn't necessarily mean you'll like it. You may develop a taste for it, or you may not. But if you don't develop a taste for it, it may make you dislike it even more than you did originally. And no matter how much you eat liver and onions, it still doesn't change the fact that you still like pepperoni pizza. Let's go even further than that. Let's say that you loved corn dogs as a kid, but you hated broccoli. However as an adult, you find that you just aren't into corn dogs anymore but interestingly enough you do like broccoli. So tastes can change, but they can't be forced to change. Even further still, why do you like your favorite food? Were you born liking it? Is it hardwired into your brain? Did you make a conscious choice to like it? You can probably say no to all three of those answers, but the fact remains that you still like it. You may have liked it since you can remember but that doesn't mean it is hardwired into your brain. And you didn't make a conscious choice to like it, you just DO. And even though you like it, you realize others may not, and it's okay; it's just a difference in tastes. Sexuality, to me, is very similar. It can change, morph, go with the flow, whatever. It can't be forced to change, but sometimes tastes may develop or wane. And WHY doesn't matter; it just is what it is. Homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone any more than heterosexuality does. The fallacy of the ex-gay ministries such as EI is that they make it seem as though there is something intrinsically wrong with gay people, that they need to change or be subject to a life of misery and an eternity in hell, and this contributes to the perpetuation of harmful stereotypes. A survey reported in the book "Sexual Conversion Therapy: Ethical, Clinical, and Research Perspectives" found that 88% of participants failed to achieve a sustained change in their sexual behavior and 3% reported changing their orientation to heterosexual. The remainder reported either losing all sexual drive or attempting to remain celibate, with no change in attraction.

Hi Paula, thanks for your comments. I know my friend well enough to say he is genuine in his testimony. And I like how you respectfully say to take him at his word, which is what I do. He very well could have some struggles. Many people have struggles of all kinds of aspects, so that wouldn't surprise me. I understand how you say homosexuals could have happy marriages and also have children. But I guess, just as you are unsure of change, I hold similar skepticism of why somebody like my friend would willingly have eight children, speak out as adamantly as he does, love his wife as he says he does, yet totally lie that he is changed.

Hi Darren, you gave a lot of information. I'll try to respond as best as I can. Basically you're saying that sexual orientation is either heterosexual or homosexual. However, since you respect APA, I discovered they acknowledge 30 human sexual orientations. So let's take this in segments. Help me understand, and I'm sincerely seeking answers, how is it that the APA acknowledges pedophilia as a legitimate sexual orientation and you won't? Please notice I don't call you names or try to put you in any stereotype or have a harsh spirit at all. I want to discuss this with you respectfully, and I'm sincerely seeking answers from you.

"Darren, you don't really give any validity to your points."


My "points" are scientifically proven facts, what more "validity" do you WANT??

"Mostly you're just emphatically disagreeing with me."


Because you're wrong, and because the lies you're promoting destroy lives and cause massive amounts of suffering for no good reason at all, and because I love the Lord and the church and homophobes like Sally Kern are disgracing and embarrassing both.

"I never mentioned the harmfulness of pedophilia,"


I did. You tried to compare homosexuality and pedophilia, a common and cheap stunt among homophobes, and the fact that pedophilia harms people is one of the reasons they're NOT comparable.

"but I'm still waiting for you to tell me why a pedophile could not say they were born as such."


WHO THE LIVING HELL CARES?? You are trying to deflect the facts by raising TOTALLY IRRELEVENT comparisons. AND trying to smear gays by continuing to promote this LIE that they're just like pedophiles, so people will fear and loath them. Pedophilia is a DIFFERENT SUBJECT, and NOT what we're talking about.

"You say God created us all."

Do you disagree? Did God NOT create all people?

"Also, you apparently advocate monogamy."

My personal opinion is that it's the best way, yes.

"Why couldn't someone say "what if I'm attracted to dozens of women, not just one?"


Again, you are comparing inborn sexual orientation to whims and desires. They're not remotely comparable.

"Why fight the urge to stay monogamous when this person was apparently born this way?"


Man, you're going from a respectful and relatively intellingent conversation into the same cheap stunts typical bigots use. Sexual orientation and "wanting" to have lots of partners are not remotely comparable.

"Darren, you want to limit the 'I was born that way' argument to homosexuality alone."


Lie. There are LOTS of traits that people are born with. YOU on the other hand are trying to pretend that homosexuality is something it is NOT by comparing it to whims, perversions, and anything you can dream up that seems negative and ugly. There is a vast amount of scientific proof of what I'm saying which you are intentionally ignoring, trying to turn this into just my own opinion.

"But whether it's attraction to children or attraction to many women, the same argument can be made that the person shouldn't be made to conform to someone else's standard of behavior, like your standard of monogamy."


Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with sexual orientation, and shouldn't even be part of the conversation.

"And I know gays are not "nasty and scary."


Yet you CONTINUE to intentionally try to make them look that way by lumping them in with child molesters, playboys, and anyone else whose CHOICES seem negative and immoral. My own PERSONAL opinion about monogamy and the mountain of scientific research about sexual orientation are two totally different topics.

"Please know that I will discuss this with you in a respectful fashion."


That's highly debatable, you certainly don't seem to be trying very hard to with the constant attempts to compare homosexuality to child rape. What next? "People can say they were born to murder!" "People can say they were born to swill Jack Daniels!" What else can we think of that's ugly that we can say is just like being gay?

"I will be upfront and honest with you. I hold no deception."


Then you are repeating stunts you've seen OTHERS pull without realizing that deception is the reason they exist. Pedophilia and homosexuality are totally different things. There is ONLY one reason that they EVER come up in the same conversation, and that is for the purposes of making homosexuality look ugly and wrong and scary and horrible.
There is one thing, and ONLY one thing, to which a legitimate comparison can be made, and that is heterosexuality. Some are gay, and some are straight. One's not better than that other. They're just different.

"It's just you and me discussing an issue. Also, I have proof that my friends were not forced to go to Exodus International meetings."


There are MILLIONS of gay people in the world, and you're promoting a group that exists that is a danger and an insult to every single one of them. You CANNOT base thoughts on this group based upon what you heard from a few people who told you they went there. The FACT is that a massive number of people ARE forced, or goaded, or hounded, or insulted, into going, and ALL of them go because of homophobia. ALL of them go because of the hateful lie that being homosexual is something they should want to change. Why should they? They're not better off if they're straight. God loves them just as much, they have just as much character, they're just as intelligent, as worthwhile as human beings. The ONLY thing they don't have is the harrassment of homophobes. They aren't the ones who need to be made to try to change, YOU are. They don't have the problem, Sally Kern has the problem. We don't need "treatment" for gays, we need it for bigots. The message gays need to get is "there's not a darn thing wrong with you, there's nothing you can do to change your sexuality, but that's OK because there's no reason you should WANT to change it."
Are you REALLY going to tell me that NONE of the people you know went to Exodus because the church told them it's "sinful" to be gay? Because their parents were horrified at their orientation? Because their friends were grossed out about it? I think we both know this was NOT just some choice of free will with no pressure from others who had negative opinions of gay people for NO good reason.
There's no coincidence that this group is promoted almost exclusively through the radical religious right. Were it not for "church" groups like Focus most would never have heard of it. EVERY person I've EVER encountered who promoted this reparative "therapy" did so through some church or religious organization, with at least the understated implication if not the outright threat that gays all burn in hell so you BETTER get this "fixed" or you're in trouble with God.

And if that's not being "forced" into it, I don't know what is.

"They do go on their own free will"

Baloney.

"and are happy to participate."


Please be aware that the APA, the single most credible and respected mental health organization in America, has been extremely clear on this subject. Not only does "therapy" to try to change sexual orientation NOT work, but it is destructive and harmful to many people. That you know a few people who jumped off a 200 foot cliff into a pond and swam away happily while the bodies of dozens who died in the attempt doesn't mean you tell people it's perfectly safe while ignoring the obvious evidence that it isn't. You're promoting something which causes tremendous harm to lots of people, and which exists for a terrible, terrible, insulting, vicious, hateful purpose.

"Also, you have not been able to successfully negate the evidence that my friend is happily married with eight children and is a strong advocate for Exodus International."


You are talking about ONE PERSON. I am talking about millions. I can find you lots of people who drink heavily every day and hold jobs, have happy marriages, and live fairly healthy lives. I wouldn't advocate having a fifth of Jim Beam for dinner, however. IF this instance of which you talk is true, and I think YOU think it is, that's beside the point. You know of an extremely rare EXCEPTION to the rule, and one thing REMAINS clear...there is STILL no such thing as a former homosexual. Your friend is not doing himself any favors by allowing this group to use him for evil, dispicable purposes, like a black guy being used to advertise the Klan. If he was homosexual before, he still is. Yeah, he's married, yeah, he made babies. Gay people CAN be made to do that, just as heterosexuals in prison where there are no women sometimes chose having sex with men over having no sex at all, that doesn't mean they turned into homosexuals. I've heard interviews with the head of Exodus on dozens of occassions, and it's obvious HE is still homosexual. Listening to him talk about how he's still "tempted" as if it were Satan trying to trip him up instead of the natural way God created him is absolutely heartbreaking, it's wrong for him and it's incredibly wrong that he's promoting this for others, the vast majority of whom will NOT be happy at the end of this quackery.

"How I can I say my friend is wrong and you are right"


DON'T SAY I AM RIGHT! I AM NOTHING! I AM NOT THE POINT! THIS ISN'T ABOUT ME! This is about scientific PROOF that sexual orientation cannot be changed. This is about a group of THOUSANDS of mental health professionals saying this group is dangerous and destructive, THOUSANDS. This is about the hate for gay people that the LIE of Exodus excuses and promotes.

"when he is living proof that there is change in his life?"

BULL! THE MAN IS STILL GAY! Either he wasn't gay to begin with, and was living a lie then, or he's living a lie now. BECAUSE THERE IS STILL NO SUCH THING AS A FORMER HOMOSEXUAL.

I wish him no harm, I hope he's happy as a clam. But for him to go around promoting a group which causes MASSIVE injury to so many people like himself is dispicable and immoral and he should be deeply ashamed. I truly hope someday he opens his eyes to what he's doing to others, and what's being done to him.

In the meantime, you're stacking your own view of one person against a mountain of scientific evidence and thousands of experts.

And what's at stake? The well-being of all gay people. THAT'S what I care about. It's obvious those at the head of Exodus don't. Not one bit. They care about promoting hate and bigotry. The rank and file regular joes who push this crapola don't think that way, I don't think you do. But people like Jim Dobson are too well educated NOT to know the truth. They are among the most evil and dispicable worms in this world.
And frankly Sally Kern's either an incredible tool who ought to know better, or is an intentional liar. Either one has absolutely no business in elected office.
Chris, Oklahoma City - Apr 2, 2008 2:16 PM

Chris, I can't say whether your friend is 100% heterosexual now or not. I can say that his eight children is not proof of his heterosexuality. There are many homosexuals who have never even attended or even heard of EI or such groups who are married and have children. Some of them stay married their entire lives, but they know that they are not heterosexual. Some of them go on the down low to the gay clubs and pick up men for sexual encounters. You claim that if your friend was still a homosexual he wouldn't have such an active sex life with his wife. But it's entirely possible that a person who is a closeted homosexual has a very active heterosexual sex life in an attempt to try and force the homosexual feelings to disappear. It's not an uncommon story at all. Now, out of respect for your friend I will say again that I have no idea whether or not he is 100% heterosexual or whether he is repressing his homosexual side to the point of being in denial. But you cannot say with 100% certainty either. The only person who knows is him, and those who are closeted will make every effort to show everyone around them how NOT gay they are. So without being disrespectful to him, I think we both have to say we are just unsure. There is no scientific measurement of ex-gays. The only way to harvest statistics is take the person at their word, and since this is a subject that still holds so much social stigma, it's not at all a stretch of the imagination to believe that there are still people lying about it. Again, I'm not accusing your friend of being a liar, I'm simply pointing out that no one really KNOWS the actual "success" rate of such programs.

Darren, you don't really give any validity to your points. Mostly you're just emphatically disagreeing with me. I never mentioned the harmfulness of pedophilia, but I'm still waiting for you to tell me why a pedophile could not say they were born as such. You say God created us all. Also, you apparently advocate monogamy. Why couldn't someone say "what if I'm attracted to dozens of women, not just one?" Why fight the urge to stay monogamous when this person was apparently born this way? Darren, you want to limit the 'I was born that way' argument to homosexuality alone. But whether it's attraction to children or attraction to many women, the same argument can be made that the person shouldn't be made to conform to someone else's standard of behavior, like your standard of monogamy. And I know gays are not "nasty and scary." Please know that I will discuss this with you in a respectful fashion. I will be upfront and honest with you. I hold no deception. It's just you and me discussing an issue. Also, I have proof that my friends were not forced to go to Exodus International meetings. They do go on their own free will and are happy to participate. Also, you have not been able to successfully negate the evidence that my friend is happily married with eight children and is a strong advocate for Exodus International. How I can I say my friend is wrong and you are right when he is living proof that there is change in his life?

(I've done the double posting, too...this one loads slowly sometimes, for some reason)

"Thanks for responding, Darren. To say that God created someone to be homosexual could also be used in the same argument realm as God created someone to be a pedophile."


Two very very different things, and a really cheap stunt. People ALWAYS compare these two, as if they were the same, ignoring not only that child molestation is harmful while homosexuality is NOT, but that straight people molest more than gays. Regardless, they're two DIFFERENT things, comparing apples and oranges.

God DID create gay people. God created us all. And it's a scientifically PROVEN fact that sexual orientation is NOT chosen but part of how we're made...in my opinion, made by God.

"I know this sounds as though I'm equating the two,"

You know it, and most do it on purpose for the reason that it makes gays look nasty and scary. In fact, they're not either.

"but I would be curious to know how your argument can work for homosexuality and not for pedophilia."


They're two different topics. Why compare them? Why not say "why for homosexuality and not heterosexuality"? Because they ARE comparable.

"As far as basic scientific facts, there have been studies that contradict what you are saying."

False. There have been NO credible scientific studies contradicting ANY of these proven facts.

I'm expecting next to hear the NARTH hogwash, Spitzer's debunked stuff. At least you're doing your homework.

"One such study was done by Dr. Robert Spitzer,"

Hey, can I call it?

This guy's bigoted trash has been THOROUGHLY debunked. And even HE doesn't claim to have any former homosexuals, only to have "reduced" the "sexual urges" of gay people. Why, I don't know, of what possible value that is, I cannot figure, but every single one of the victims...I mean, "subjects"...of this sham therapy have one thing in common.

Every single one of them is still homosexual. Every single one.

There is no such thing as a former homosexual.

"who led the charge in the 1970’s to remove homosexuality from a list of mental disorders. The results of his study were published in October 2003."

By NARTH, an extremely small group with NO scientific credibility. The "study" has never been published in a peer-reviewed journal, did NO long-term follow-up on the "subjects," and STILL did not claim to have "cured" anyone, or turned a single person into a heterosexual.

"Even though his study is one of the most recent published,"

False. There are many, many, MANY studies more recent.

"it is rarely if ever mentioned in media coverage. "

Because it comes from a group with no scientific credibility and because it's been debunked, because it did NOT use legitimate research methods, because it's NEVER been published in a peer-reviewed journal.

Because it's crapola.

And yet it STILL gets vast amounts of attention, because it's CONSTANTLY being trumpeted by the radical religious right, DESPERATE to claim that homosexuality is some "disease" that can be "Cured" because that would make their bigotry seem a little less mean.

A little.

"Many reputable therapists"

FALSE!!!!!

You mean a SMALL number of NON-reputable therapists.

"believe that while genes may be predictive of behavior, environment and choice determine behavior."

Homosexuality is not a behavior. Environment and choice will NOT cause a person who is gay to become attracted sexually or romantically to a person of the opposite sex, any more than it will cause you or I to suddenly get really turned on by a guy.
There is a SMALL question as to whether there is some SMALL role of "environment" in sexual orientation, most research says it's none. However, one thing IS clear...the hoary old myths of sexual orientation being affected by "strong mothers and weak fathers" or gays all having been molested as children have been completely put to rest. If anything, "environment" may ONLY be a factor in whether a person is comfortable with who they are, gay or straight, or whether they have an extremely hard time dealing with their homosexuality and try to pretend to be straight for long periods, as some people do.

"Because as Paul says, “We were dead in trespasses and sins, ….we are by nature children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:1-4), we each may have certain sins to which we are more inclined than others."


Totally non-related, since homosexuality isn't a sin.

"That is why the Bible is so clear that we need to be born again."

Which is a great thing, but being born again won't cause a gay person to magically turn straight. Some gay people are born again, but since the segment of Christianity which talks a lot about that, and it is NOT all Christianity but just a small group, tends to attract lots of homophobes, you don't hear about it a lot.

"Temptation will not automatically disappear when we place our trust in Christ, but we will have a new nature and a new power within to deal with the power of sin."

And, again, that has nothing at all to do with orientation. If I'm gay and I screw around a lot, it might make me more likely to get a steady and have a monogomous relationship, and that's a great thing, I've always said catting around was wrong, gay or straight. Sex belongs in a committed, monogomous relationship, ideally (for gay or straight people) a marriage.

"Also Darren, would you admit that anyone who attends an Exodus International meeting does so voluntarily?"


Absolutely NOT! MANY people are made to go, pressured, hounded.

"Nobody is forced to go,"

LOL!!! Wow, that's about as ridiculous as anything you've said! No, you're VERY wrong. Many people are forced, hounded, pressured, pushed, made to get into these dispicable sham "therapies."

"yet many attend happily"

Vastly MORE attend UNhappily. These are destructive and dangerous lies. NOBODY should get involved with these groups. These cause damage to people and help NOBODY. NOBODY. There is NOTHING they do that cannot be done far, far better and safer by LEGITIMATE mental health professionals.

"and have found definite change."


Hogwash. A person who is gay being made to feel so guilty about their INBORN sexual orientation that they're brainwashed into thinking romance and sexual attraction are terrible so they try to force themselves into being assexual is inhuman. It's NOT healthy, it's NOT wholesome, it's NOT right. There is absolutely nothing positive about the existance of that group AT ALL.

"If it's so harmful, then why do people go out of their own choice and not forced to go?"

Many are forced, and those who go of their "own choice" do so out of a LIE, the desperate false belief that being gay is "wrong" and that they can be "cured."

And every single one of them has one thing in common...they're all, every single one of them, still gay.

Sorry for the double posting. I'll try to do better.

Thanks for responding, Darren. To say that God created someone to be homosexual could also be used in the same argument realm as God created someone to be a pedophile. I know this sounds as though I'm equating the two, but I would be curious to know how your argument can work for homosexuality and not for pedophilia. As far as basic scientific facts, there have been studies that contradict what you are saying. One such study was done by Dr. Robert Spitzer, who led the charge in the 1970’s to remove homosexuality from a list of mental disorders. The results of his study were published in October 2003. Even though his study is one of the most recent published, it is rarely if ever mentioned in media coverage. Many reputable therapists believe that while genes may be predictive of behavior, environment and choice determine behavior. Because as Paul says, “We were dead in trespasses and sins, ….we are by nature children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:1-4), we each may have certain sins to which we are more inclined than others. That is why the Bible is so clear that we need to be born again. Temptation will not automatically disappear when we place our trust in Christ, but we will have a new nature and a new power within to deal with the power of sin. Also Darren, would you admit that anyone who attends an Exodus International meeting does so voluntarily? Nobody is forced to go, yet many attend happily and have found definite change. If it's so harmful, then why do people go out of their own choice and not forced to go?

Thanks for responding, Darren. To say that God created someone to be homosexual could also be used in the same argument realm as God created someone to be a pedophile. I know this sounds as though I'm equating the two, but I would be curious to know how your argument can work for homosexuality and not for pedophilia. As far as basic scientific facts, there have been studies that contradict what you are saying. One such study was done by Dr. Robert Spitzer, who led the charge in the 1970’s to remove homosexuality from a list of mental disorders. The results of his study were published in October 2003. Even though his study is one of the most recent published, it is rarely if ever mentioned in media coverage. Many reputable therapists believe that while genes may be predictive of behavior, environment and choice determine behavior. Because as Paul says, “We were dead in trespasses and sins, ….we are by nature children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:1-4), we each may have certain sins to which we are more inclined than others. That is why the Bible is so clear that we need to be born again. Temptation will not automatically disappear when we place our trust in Christ, but we will have a new nature and a new power within to deal with the power of sin. Also Darren, would you admit that anyone who attends an Exodus International meeting does so voluntarily? Nobody is forced to go, yet many attend happily and have found definite change. If it's so harmful, then why do people go out of their own choice and not forced to go?

I appreciate the respectful tone of your response, and the honest questions. However, I remain absolutely firmly opposed to this organization, and their purpose in being. For every individual who thinks they're better off for having their sex drive reduced because of the false belief that it's somehow "immoral" to have been created gay by God, there are far, far more whose lives have been extremely negatively affected by this sham that there's some "cure" for homosexuality. Because the APA's position is so clear, the responsible view is also clear. Exodus and other groups should NOT be supported by churches and other decent people, but rather we need to start sharing the truth...that it's perfectly normal for people to have different sexual orientations, and the responsible way to deal with someone who's having trouble dealing with their homosexuality is to help them face that they're still made in God's image and still a good decent person.
The myth that people can "change" their sexual orientation helps promote the myth that sexual orienation is chosen, and this is at the very root of most bigotry and hate towards gays, which is rampant and a major problem in our nation, for which the church bears more than a little direct responsibility. We're supposed to help people who are troubled, not harm them. The existance of these programs is harmful to all gay people, and participation is extremely harmful to the vast majority of those who get sucked in to these shams.

And the most basic scientific facts of this whole deal have to remain at the forefront, which is that while this group MAY reduce sex drive in some people, and some people may actually be happy with this (for bad reasons) there is STILL no such thing as a former homosexual.

Hi Darren, I've been wanting to discuss with you. I hope you're still around. I would never say that thousands who have gone through Exodus International have been cured, but I do believe they have changed. Many desire to no longer be a part of what they describe as a homosexual lifestyle. Now, I know you have expressed in the past you don't agree with this perspective. However, I know my friends who have expressed this genuinely believe they are happier after going through an EI program. And I'll agree with you that we need to love our neighbors, as Jesus said. And I'm willing to lovingly share a dialogue with you. Jesus also said to "deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me." I do believe those who want to change can change. I'm not saying it is easy, and Jesus was referencing this by saying to take up one's cross. But there are definitely those who no longer consider themselves homosexuals. They have changed. One who I have great respect for has an awesome family of eight kids, I believe. To me, someone who would be living a lie I don't think would be willing to have such an abundant sex life with his wife. So I think this evidence would contradict your recent postings. I welcome your response.

Rufus says--"Talking to these gay fanatics is a waste of taxpayer's time. Ms. Kern has better things to do."

Jesus says--"Love your neighbor."

The two statements are diametrically opposed...not merely in different directions, but the exact OPPOSITE of one another.

The claims from Exodus are dispicable, bigoted lies. There are ZERO former homosexuals. Not a single one. There is no such thing as a former homosexual.
The American Psychologic Association has been extremely clear on this topic, saying that not only can sexual orientation NOT be changed, but that it's dangerous and destructive to try. People need to start getting information on this topic from legitimate scientific groups and not politically based radical religious right hate groups like Exodus.

The claims that "thousands have changed" are so spectacularly false they should be delivered while wearing clown makeup. Were it not for the very evil intent of this lie, and the very real destruction and human misery it causes, it would be absolutely hilarious that while the fact remains that not a SINGLE person has EVER had their sexual orientation changed by these phony baloney "cures" someone could claim "thousands", absolutely hilarious.
I've read the claims of the head of NARTH, the group made up of the extremely small number of mental health "professionals" pushing the lie of reparative therapy, about their "successes." What you'll find upon close examination is that their claimed "successes" are people who have reduced "unwanted same-sex urges." In other words, they're still absolutely 100% homosexual, they just have reduced sex drive. He could not point to a SINGLE person who was heterosexual.
As for Exodus, it was founded by two people, one of whom is now living as an acknowledged and open homosexual and who admits the whole thing is a fraud. The other is still clinging desperately to the lie, and you'll hear him pretty often on shows like "Focus on the Family," and it's downright heart-breaking that this guy's been so deluded and so exploited and abused. He's married to a woman, and continues to push the lie that he's been "cured" of homosexuality. Yet, when asked, he'll tell you that he still "struggles" with "temptation" every day.
In other words, in spite of the act he's putting on, he's still attracted sexually and romantically to men.

In simpler terms, he's NOT been "cured." He's still gay. And like EVERY other gay person, he ALWAYS will be.

That may sound like bad news, but it need not be, because contrary to the rest of the lies of hate groups like Focus being gay is NOT a sin, is not "unnatural" or "perverted," and is not condemned by God.

It's no surprise that a conversation about homosexuality in Oklahoma has been taken over by such spectacuarly false "information" from radical right groups. Thousands "cured."? That's hysterical. Unfortunately, the lie that homosexuality can be "cured" was invented ONLY to make it seem OK to hate and discriminate.

Meanwhile, one thing Sally Kern said WAS true...very little of what she said was much more than hogwash, but one thing WAS true...the suicide rate for gays is astonishingly high.

And Sally Kern, and those promoting the vicious lie of a "cure" for homosexuality, are the reason.

Don't kick yourself. I used to pride myself on being able to remain unemotional in discussions such as these even when the issue was close to my heart. I think I need to back away for a while in order to regain my objectivity.

Paula...you did not offend me. I could kick myself for being so ...ah...I am not sure exactly how to call it...detached, maybe. I am not apathetic to your feelings, yet (now that I using some common sense), I can see how it might seem so...after all, I know you are passionate about this and too expect you to become "clinical" (?) was asking too much. I was operating without emotion on the issue...but I should have enough sense to know that is not appropriate since it is an emotional issue for you. _________Paula, I don't think ill of you! But...I have that same concern in regard to your feelings about me. _____ I'm sorry, Paula. My words must have seemed insensitive and unkind to you (and maybe others). I regret that.

Kern gets all worked up over homosexuals, when the FBI has been going on-line with pedophiles who are meeting children through chat groups. To me this is the worst of the worst! Then, you have Priests in the Churches preying on young boys... Personally, this is the ultimate betrayal!

C, I apologize to you as well if I offended you. As I stated to Chris, there have been some posters here who have spoken ill of myself and my family simply because of what I believe. It's not often that I get worked into a tizzy on these forums, and I believe you have seen one other time besides this. Both of those which you have witnessed arose from a situation where I felt my family/friends/loved ones were being insulted. That is an issue I have a difficult time ignoring and a few people have seized upon that in order to further my anger. I realize this, and I apologize if I said anything you felt was directed at you inappropriately. I have always respected you and your posting persona (for lack of a better word) and I don't want you to think ill of me. This is a subject that is very close to my heart for many reasons, and can easily get me fired up. My frustration with some of the posts here came through in my words to you, and I apologize for that.

Paula, I just caught your post of 6:44 to Chris. I hope I didn't make a mistake in posting my words to you. Again, I want you to know and understand that I am not trying to change anyone or "damning" anyone....period. _________ I am giving this issue more thought than ever before and, in doing so, I am doing some deep thinking and some real inquiry. Take care.

Paula...I was not speaking in favor of any group. In fact, I have never even heard of the group in question and knew absolutely nothing about it...until I read the post exchange between you and Chris (?). (I read your comment first and then read what Chris said. ) Paula, I am more drawn to reading your commentary because I "know" you. There are a few others I am familiar with, as well. I usually am not as interested in the comments by those I don't "know." I understand that I can count on integrity in certain individuals no matter what position they hold. _____Therefore, most of the posts here, I haven't read. Yours I will read any time I run across them. _______
What I was asking was truly a sincere query. I think it is scientifically interesting. I am not making judgements here. My comments have nothing to do with moral issues ...I am considering all this without emotion...I am being objective. I think it is an interesting thesis. _____I wish I had limited it to the one basic question that I was considering. (rather than bringing up procreation...that really is not a part of what I was speaking ....but it just occurred to me as I was writing and, like you, I was in a hurry. I should never post when hurried because then I fail to proof and take care of things that have no relevance to the point I am considering or making. ______In my post to you, I wasn't trying to make a point...but was considering a possible aspect of sexual orientation. ________In one of my college courses (in fact, two), the material covered related that the brain was the most powerful "sexual" organ that humans have. In other words, our brain is key to the sexual urge within us, to performance, etc. ______My question to you was triggered by your comment. It made me ask myself this question..."Is it possible for men/women be freed from heterosexuality?" (Not saying anyone wants to be or doesn't want to be here...just can it happen.) _____I thought it was interesting to consider that possibility. I still do. The whole topic is interesting. While it is not one I usually think about...the dialogue certainly has opened it up. Not in this thread for I have not kept up with the comments here and have not read more than maybe five or six of them....period. My reading on this topic was more widespread in the initial article which discussed the comments of Rep. Kern. __________
Anyway, if the brain is the major human "sex" organ and if a habit can be acquired when it is practiced 21 times...it seemed possible that a person could acquire the behavior of homosexuality. ____I do understand that it is typically accepted to be an innate or inborn quality in such individuals. I don't challenge that thesis. _____________Even so, upon reading your statement...I seriously wonder if can be a learned behavior in some people._________I regret mentioning procreation. I feel it tainted my words in your mind and you were offended by that comment. So... I feel the need to make further comment in response to your comments. I hope that you will not take them wrong. I feel what I am going to say is scientifically sound and should not cause anyone to feel uncomfortable in any way. Some things are simply a matter of fact and nothing can protect us from certain facts. I believe that procreation is the purpose of sexual urges. And..of course, there is an inborn drive (urge) to bring the act to fruition. I think that is so..and very necessary.. in order and to ensure that there will be the propagation of life in order for a species to continue without extinction. For life to continue, this drive is necessary within all animal life forms. (even plant life has reproductive systems..including male and female "parts." But the propagation of plant life is brought about in a different way...yet, plant life propagation does demonstrate the basic concept of which I am speaking in that it is necessary for the survival of the species. All animal life has an innate...(inborn behavior) ...instinct to bring to fruition the possibility of conception to enable the survival of the species. However, in the case of human beings, the human intellect has devised ways to interrupt or prevent conception from occurring. Of course, in the case of lower animal life, that is not possible. So, it is human life that can manipulate the act to possibly prevent conception. In the Western World, birth control has effectively limited the population explosion. In Third Word countries, the practice of birth control has been less available and less likely. ________There are, of course, natural deviations (not talking of homosexuality in this particular instance) which occur within the reproductive system which preclude any possibility of conception. _________All this is interesting, I think. _______ I don't think it is should be considered offensive to consider these basic elements and characteristics of life forms. From a scientific standpoint, it seems appropriate to wonder if it is not probable that there might be some who might experiment even though such like gender experimentation would deviate from said individuals basic sexual orientation. If that behavior became habitual for any reason, might not said individuals be "freed of their heterosexuality?" Your comment stimulated my thoughts. However, upon considering that phrase, it seems possible that emotional, mental, and physical stimulus could trigger and enable that possibility. _______ Paula, you know that I am a Christian. However, please know that my considerations and thoughts and queries posted here are not based on subjectivity. My words have nothing to do with judging behavior. My thoughts are not tied to the study of values, Paula, but are restricted to scientific inquiry. Knowledge is important and I will continue to pursue it (knowledge) for so long as I live, hopefully. It is my hope that you and others find no reason to be offended by my words.......judgment of others is not my intent or my desire.

Chris, I apologize if you think I can't accept you for who you are and what you believe. I am obviously very passionate about certain things, and these things have caused a lot of people on these boards to say some very nasty things about me (and about my loved ones as well.) I apologize for counting you as one of those people. I do believe people can change as well. What bothers me is that there exists a mindset that those who are gay NEED to change; that being gay in itself is a reason to be ashamed, that it's a bad thing. My main point is that people can't be and shouldn't be forced to change. Organizations like EI guilt people into believing there is something inherently wrong with them, that their homosexuality is a psychological disorder, or that they have given in to satan (hence the eternal damnation) if they can't just be straight. To the 50-70 percent of people who don't change (according to your statistics, mind you) these ideas are dangerous and damaging. I can't support any organization that hurts over half its members with its ideas.

I don't have much time to answer right now, but I will apologize to Chris if he feels I have insulted him. Is it not the purpose of reparative therapy, since it stems from religious organizations, to "reform" the homosexual so they can avoid eternal damnation? I feel this is the main purpose of such organizations, and since you are obviously in favor of such things I assumed you would believe the same. If not, I apologize. There are obviously those here who do, and those are the people I am speaking about. C, one cannot force themselves to be free from their sexuality. Obviously one can abstain from being sexually active for a myriad of reasons, but that doesn't stop basic human urges from occurring. I'm also not saying that there isn't anyone who is gay by choice. I know some who are. But for the vast majority of people, it's simply another facet of their being; like preferring chicken to beef, or country music to rock music, or anything else. _____________ I don't view the books discussed here as a way to "convert" children, or as a way to tap into their sexuality, nor do I know any homosexual people who *want* to tap into the sexuality of children. I'm sure they exist, but straight people of the same ilk exist. It's not about a person's sexual orientation. No, I view the books as simply an example to children that not all families are mom and dad and child. There are kids who live with grandparents, step-parents, aunts/uncles, cousins, siblings, and yes, even same-gendered parents. There is nothing wrong with kids knowing this, and it doesn't have to prompt a discussion about sex until they are ready to learn about such things. ____________ As for sex being about procreation, what about people who remain childless by choice? Or those who are infertile? Or older couples who have passed their childbearing years? Should they also be shunned as "deviant" because their sexual contact isn't solely for the purpose of having children? ___________ I have too many things to do right now to get involved much further. But again, I am sorry if I offended anyone by prejudging, and yes I'm open to discussion. But I will never be convinced that EI and other such programs aren't dangerous and damaging.

Paula, I know you are passionate in your advocacy for gay rights. I respect your commitment. I think and hope you know that I respect you. ____I believe that you are a person who seeks objectivity, as do I. Something I read here that you wrote generated a thought. It is with respect (I mean that sincerely!), Paula, that I ask this question which was generated by your own words. Who's to say that being "free of hextrosexuality" is not possible? Perhaps there is the potential for those with normal sexual orientation to be "freed" of that characteristic. Maybe that is one concern and reason that a majority of people would prefer that exposure to the gay lifestyle is limited in regard to children. Perhpas it is possible that the power of suggestion can stimulate sexual orientation to veer off in another direction. What if the hextrosexuality of the individual can be redirected in the young child by the subtle manipulation or tampering of the young child's mind in regard to exposure to gay lifestyle. Many of the books for children out there advocating the gay lifestyle are directed at the very young child. I have to wonder if this is not wrong. Most children of the ages which such books target are too young to be concerned with sexuality...period. Isn't it possible that the time will come when there may be a discovery and a subsequent recognition that at least some instances of homosexuality are the result of learned behavior? Really....who knows? Who can say for certain that does not occur? ___If so, and it is true as so much testimony implies, that gay individuals suffer much, isn't it important to make sure that there is no opportunity by the hand of any movement to skew the sexuality of any person. Learned behaviors do exist. Is it unreasonable to assume that with certain mental and physical stimuli, this behavior could become a standard behavior in certain individuals? ___Perhaps there have been studies, but even so....such studies may not be sufficient to make a determination in regard to the learned behavior aspect of homosexuality. Surely, the scientific world would be cautious and controlled and limited in pursuing that end. In pursuing such studies, scientists would be tampering with the individual and the result could be detrimental and harmful....I doubt such case studies will happen to the extent needed to form an absolute conclusion. _____We need to remember that the basic purpose of sex is procreation. _____ Sometimes it seems that making the private lives of those who have a deviant sexual orientation is an invasion of their privacy and a manipulation of the people themselves.....and simply because there actually may be those who do have an agenda._______It is my hope that you do not find my thoughts offensive. They are genuine ...and are posed with honesty and good will. I have not offered this post to be mean spirited....but I am sincere in this pondering.

And another thing, tens of thousands? You mean to tell me that you know for sure that there are that many who have gone through Exodus International but have not gone through change? From what I have been told studies have suggested there has been 30-50% of change rate. It's not perfect, but real change is possible.

By the way, Paula, you made a prejudgement of me. You never heard me mention eternal damnation. That's unfortunate that you're not willing to accept me for me and how I view.

I never said it was an illness. But I do believe people can change, and I've seen people change. Please know that I welcome the exchange of thoughts. One of my concerns is it seems as though there are those who no longer want to be involved in the homosexual lifestyle and have proven to overcome such. But these friends of mine are refused to be acknowledged, and I believe this is unfortunate. Actually, you can be free from a heterosexual lifestyle as well. There are people who lived as eunuchs. So this would be another contradiction to something you posted.

The flaw is in treating it like an illness. It is not. Unless you can also be "free" from heterosexuality, then people cannot be "free" from homosexuality. It depends on who you listen to; those who have been through the therapy and admit they still have feelings of attraction for same-gendered people, or those who have been through the therapy and don't admit they still have attractions to same-gendered people. Considering the scope of that closet, I am more likely to trust those who admit it didn't work, and there are far more of them than there are of your testimonials (the vast majority of whom are likely guilted into pretending to be a heterosexual for the fear you and others instill into them of eternal damnation.) But there's no point in debating with you. Nothing I say will be persuasive enough to convince you (after all, all you need is one person to pretend to be straight and do a pretty good job at it and you won't believe the tens of thousands of others who deny the legitimacy of this type of "therapy" or the psychological associations with no religious affiliation, you know the non-biased studies...) So don't bother.

There have been updated studies, as well as personal testimonies, who contradict your postings, Paula. I have experienced many who have gone through genuine change. I can only go on what they tell me, and I believe them. So there's a lot of evidence to prove what you posted is false. Even if one person genuinely changes, and there's far more than one, literally thousands who have changed, then all this information you gave has flaws. And I only need one to prove that I am correct. And I know that I am. Anyone who wants to be free from homosexuality can be free.

"The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable." American Psychological Association 1998; "Clinical experience suggests that any person who seeks conversion therapy may be doing so because of social bias that has resulted in internalized homophobia, and that gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation positively are better adjusted than those who have not done so." American Psychiatric Association, 1994; "The potential risks of "reparative" or "conversion" therapy are great, including depression, anxiety and self destructive behavior." American Psychiatric Association, 1994.

There is no reliable scientific research to indicate that any change in sexual orientation has occurred as a result of these programs. There has never been a study published in a peer-reviewed journal supporting these efforts. Professional peer review is standard for all scientific research and proposed care. Reports of change come only from the "ex-gay" leadership and the practitioners of reparative therapy. "Ex-gay" programs have been denounced by every respected medical and mental health care organization and child welfare agency in America. Michael Bussey and Gary Cooper, co-founders of the "ex-gay" ministry, Exodus International, reported that "ex-gay" programs reinforce feelings of guilt and failure in their participants. After they accepted their gay identity and their love for each other, they denounced the organization they helped to create as fraudulent and indicated that many of their clients become profoundly depressed and entertained thoughts of suicide when they found themselves unable to change their sexual orientation. They also stated that in their personal experience "not one person was healed" of homosexuality.

Also, Paula, Dr. Stanton Jones who co-authored the book "Ex-Gays? A Longitudinal Study of Religiousy Mediated Change in Sexual Orientation" has stated that religiously mediated sexual orientation change is possible for some individuals and does not cause psychological harm to the patient, on average.

I know that Exodus International is not psychologically damaging. I know many who are very happy after going through EI. There could be those who are confessing what you are saying, but I know others who will contradict your information, Paula. It is possible for those who want to be free from homosexuality if they really want to be.

Administer an electric shock everytime they look at another guy and then hand them a playboy...

Exodus, Love in Action, and other "reparative therapy" organizations do more harm than good. It has been proven to be psychologically damaging. Many former leaders of such programs have apologized for the psychological and emotional damage inflicted upon their subjects. Many former ex-gays have come forward and admitted that they never changed, they just lived a lie. Many continued having same gender sexual contact while living in a hetero marriage, not just hurting themselves but also their spouses and children in the process by lying about who they are. http://www.beyondexgay.com/article/apology

I'm wondering if Joe or anybody else is around to continue discussing Exodus International. I really believe this is a helpful organization. Anybody care to dialogue?

Talking to these gay fanatics is a waste of taxpayer's time. Ms. Kern has better things to do.

And one other point, Janice, I hope that your children had a great childhood and that you gave them all the love they needed because we are not the future they are and they are the ones that I honestly hope settle this so that not one more person has to go thru the things in life I have, or others have. See i am at peace with the lord and I know that when I die, I will answer for my sins and know that my GOD loves me for I am created in his image and that I will be accepted when he comes calling.

I am sorry to see that you had such a difficult time with your 2 year old, but I cherish the time I have with her. Working with her to learn her alphabet, teaching her manners and how to act in public and at home. See the great thing about my daughter is that she is wonderful, beautiful and the reason I work so hard to provider her a life that she will never want, never need and to always know that she is loved by me and her grandparents.

Janice, also today is grandparents day when my parents take my daughter for the day so that I can have time to do my laundry, clean the house so that I can have time during the week when I get home from work and Saturday's to spend with her with out having to worry about anything. See I have a great family and this way my daughter gets to spend atleast 1 day a week doing what ever they want to and however they want to spend it. then we meet for sunday evening services which start at 6:30 for our church and then as a family we have supper and then bed time. Maybe it was diffrent for you but I am able to handle my family life quite nicely and my daughter gets to know what it is like to grow up in a loving family.

for your info janice, I attend sunday night services with my parents for your information.

MICHEAL... You said that you go to church. This is Sunday and I see you have been on the computer since before dawn this morning. When do you find time to go to church? I still say you are a liar and a phony.

MICHEAL.. You have said in earlier comments that you have a 2 year old daughter. If that is true, who is taking care of her, because the way I see it you are on the computer 24/7. When my children were 2 years old, I was lucky if I got time to even take a shower because a 2 year old needs constant supervision.
I think you are lying and you are a big phony.

T.A, for your point that I cannot battle these demons, I am sorry but I am Christian, I read the bible and go to church, I just choose to see my god as a loving god. I am sorry that my interpretation that has not changed since I was a young child in Sunday school is different then what you want to see it. I actually am a very happy person that is afforded a wonderful job, a beautiful home, a beautiful daughter which I adopted and will give here all the same chances my loving parents gave me when I was a child. See I am a normal person with the same goals as anyone else to have a happy life and I have that and very lucky that I have wonderful friends in the great city both straight and gay that see me as just another person.

Janice, I am sorry you missed the point. Also missing the point that I am a tax paying citizen. Also the point that we all as citizens of this state and nation need to find some common ground to have logical, rational conversations. I am sorry that you do not appreciate the fact that an educated gay man, can speak logically, rationally and ask rational and logical questions. As to the comment to me to shut up I don't think so. See what you have attempted to do is stop my right to my beliefs in the bible, my interpretations in a debate that some in here have actually been willing to have as civil and just where at some points we can just agree to disagree. If you read all of my post I have never said that anyone that didn't agree with the way I was born and live my life hated. What you missed was that There are shades of gray that can come when it come to speech and condemnation. When someone says that I am worst then a terrorist do you think I might think that person is filled with hate. Yes because you have just said that myself as well as thousands of people in this city alone are no better then terrorist, that just almost 13 years ago did a cowardly act and killed 169 people down town and in fact some were friends and family so yes I would take offense. I never said anyone has to approve of me but I did say that we should work to common ground as human beings and find a way to live in this small world together. Also on a side note we are not those homosexuals we are actually human beings just like yourself and maybe if as part of the society was afforded the same respect we would not have to have the conversations.

Richard, I think it's really come down to the point where it really is a matter of casting pearls in the wrong direction. God told us that there would be many whose hearts had been giving over to sins of the flesh and sealed so that nothing anyone says would change them. I do not hate anyone nor do I wish anyone to face eternal hell, but there's simply nothing we can do about everyone we come across. Michael cannot battle these demons if he refuses to accept the truth of Gods word, that they are in fact demons.