Letters to the Editor: Friday, Nov. 21, 2008
Published: November 21, 2008
Consolidation urged
I’m a native Pennsylvanian who moved to Oklahoma in 1977. In the 1950s, Pennsylvania instituted a school consolidation plan to more effectively use state education tax dollars. My sister-in-law lived in Juniata County, which is a rural farm county in central Pennsylvania. Juniata County has had only one unified school system since the 1950s. As of the 2000 census, Juniata County had a population that’s exceeded by 37 of Oklahoma’s counties. This means Oklahoma has 40 counties with a lower population than Juniata County. How many of these 40 counties have more than one school system? My guess is, nearly all of them do.
President-elect Barack Obama
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Dangerous attitude
"Domestic terrorism activities grow after vote, expert says” (news story, Nov. 13) indicates that there’s been an increase of activity in right-wing hate groups and seems to point to the election as a cause. I take issue with several of the comments made in this article. It’s hard to be an "expert” in the arena of terrorism. The subject is a broad one and covers everything from Islam to the Earth Liberation Front. These organizations have been around forever and their recruiting continues in earnest. It’s irresponsible to talk about terrorism without mentioning the terroristic methods employed by the leftist gay organizations in their protests over Proposition 8 in California. These groups are, under the strict definition of the law, terror organizations. Numerous organizations in this country are determined to undermine the Constitution and the fundamentals of what this country stands for. The definition of terrorism is a broad one. We need to acknowledge the existence of all of them, that each organization wants to do us harm, and to work against their effects. To target one and not the other is irresponsible and dangerous. Matthew Dukes, Midwest CityHere’s the downside
In response to Brandon Wertz (Your Views, Nov. 12): Yes, we could all live comfortably on $125,000 a year. But, there’s another side to overtaxing the rich and the Republicans have done a poor job of explaining that side. Unless a person gets into the multimillion-dollar tax bracket, a mammoth tax increase will affect lifestyle choices — fewer cruises and vacations, for example, which means hotels and cruise lines lay off personnel. There will be less eating out at upscale restaurants, less shopping at upscale clothing stores. This means more layoffs in these industries. Also, fewer car sales mean even more layoffs. Those extra tax dollars could be spent to start another business venture, putting more people to work. Tax increases have a downside as well as an upside. Mary Lou Bates, BethanyMarket effects
When Barack Obama stated his intention to bankrupt the coal industry with his carbon cap proposal, he apparently forgot to tell union members how it will affect their jobs. In addition to the mining industry, unionized coal-related industries include coke, iron and steel manufacturers; transportation companies; concrete manufacturers; road, office and home builders; chemical companies and electrical generating plants. As power plants that use coal are forced to switch to oil and natural gas, market effects will cause rapid rises in consumers’ bills for gasoline, diesel fuel, home heating oil and electricity. Yes, Obama forgot to tell union members and consumers that your jobs, your income and your savings will be damaged when he bankrupts the coal industry. Allen H. Wise, EdmondIt’s made worse
I work in the state Capitol area and use Lincoln Boulevard daily to get home. The construction area on S Lincoln has been an inconvenience for all of us, but it’s made worse by inconsiderate drivers. The street narrows to one lane and yet every day there are those who try to beat the line by flying down the left lane and then trying to cut in front of those who’ve been patiently waiting. Not only does this create a bottleneck that delays everyone, but I’ve also witnessed four wrecks caused by people trying to force their way in front of someone else. No one’s more eager to get home than I am. I resent these rude drivers who cause more problems and delays for the rest of us. Please be considerate and quit trying to race to the front of the line. It slows us all down and it’s dangerous. Diana Holladay, NormanToolbar sponsored by: David Stanley Ford
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Your thoughts!
I am still wondering why Christians are labled right wing radicals and can be pointed out clearly, while left wing radicals have no definition. Radicals exist everywhere and do horrific things to make a statement and I don't think they give a hoot if they are right or left.
I am a Christian, but my only radical moves are to pester our big leaders in expressing my opinions. I get tired sometimes of being connected to the KKK. My big connection to a group is church and Triple A.
Sallie, Del City - Nov 22, 2008 at 9:11 am
You have left out the liberal group ELF whiuch is definately terroism.
jeff, Harrah - Nov 22, 2008 at 8:54 am
Gregory,Norman about your 7:39 post
There are a great many groups that would kill me or you for being white. Some of them are even funded by our government. The Black Panthers are only one of many pro-black groups that feel free to do anything to enforce their view of equailty. (insert name of black gang ) would kill me for being white in the wrong part of town at the wrong time of day for wearing the wrong kind of shoes. ( insert name of mexican gang ) would kill me for being white in the wrong part of town at the wrong time of day for wearing the wrong kind of shoes. It wasnt all that long ago that i experienced all that and more first hand. Me and my family were going to my grandmothers funeral ( my dads mother). It was about 10PM and we were looking for a hotel. Two black cops pulled us over and told us bluntly "If you people dont leave this part of town now your not going to make it out alive." He was not joking he was deadly serious. We were lucky he saw us and was nice enough to guide us to a place where we could get a hotel room safetly. How many places are unsafe for a black person to walk around Oklahoma at night? ( from fear of white people not fear of black on black gang violance) I have worked on jobs all across the state and i have never been in any where people were in danger for simply being black. There are many places that it is unsafe for a white person to walk around at night. Bricktown is safe for anyone. Our capital .... not so much. im not trying to rant on about raceisim, just trying to state a fact that there are many legal and illegal orginizations that will hurt or kill people for not being part of THEIR monority.
Stephen, Ada
as for abortion clinic bombings ... the only ones i know about are what i hear about in the news. Those stories were aobut people getting prosecuted for bombings that happened in excess of 20 years ago so i will yeild to your greater knowledge. It still bugs me to no end when pro abortion groups try to expand those numbers to give the impression that there is a veritable wave of abortion clinic bombings going on all across america.
james, oklahoma city - Nov 22, 2008 at 2:31 am
I have tried 3 time to post to Stephen and Gregory. It will not go through. Fine...we can all meet again on the next issue of "who gives a flying jinny" another time... it is Friday night...time for popcorn and rent a movie from Cox. Nite nite.
Sallie, Del City - Nov 21, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Gregory, re your 7:39 p.m. post, amen.
Stephen, Ada - Nov 21, 2008 at 7:52 pm
James, re your 2:56 p.m. post: Yes, my conclusion would be the same if it were the KKK. In fact, I got a KKK flyer here in Ada, included with my local newspaper presumably because I had an Obama yard sign. (That seemed to be the pattern in town.) It pissed me off, and I thought it was disturbing. But I certainly didn't think it was terrorism or a hate crime. Our Constitution protects speech and speech acts, regardless of whether they are hateful or tasteless.
My argument this a.m. was--as it remains--that terrorism is terrorism. (I never actually engaged much on the "hate crime" discussion today.) Mr. Dukes' letter--and several of the posts today--simply provide yet more illustrations of public discourse getting ever more sloppy in its use of certain terms. The more we each define words for our own (or our ideological group's) purposes, the less able we are to actually and meaningfully communicate with each other. And that sort of sucks.
And as for recent acts of anti-abortion terrorism, it was only last year that a clinic was burned down in Albuquerque and it's been only 15 years since Dr. Gunn was shot down and killed in Florida. Not so long ago as you seem to believe.
(And let's be clear: Those were acts of terrorism, not "hate crimes." "Hate crimes" are statutorily defined acts that allow the courts to impose sentencing enhancements based on the satisfaction of certain factors, e.g., evidence of animus against a specified class of person.)
Stephen, Ada - Nov 21, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Sallie, re your 7:20 p.m. post, I don't think anyone argued that disrupting a church service should be disregarded. The argument I'm hearing (and making) is that mere disruption is not a hate crime and certainly isn't terrorism. Is it rude, tasteless, and pretty much dumb? Yep, but even if it's hate based, it's not much more than that.
Stephen, Ada - Nov 21, 2008 at 7:40 pm
I guess James..we dould go "tit for tat"...
For example, you can bring up Rosey and I can counter with say...Anne Coulter.
You can bring up Rev. Wright and I can counter with James Dobson or Tony Perkins.
You can bring up (insert left hate spewer) and I can counter with (insert right hate spewer).
However, how many organizations can you name that want to literally kill you for being white?
Now, how many organizations could you name that literally want to kill you, if you were a minority? Think about it...
That doesn't make me or the left any better than you. It's just a logical explanation as to why the right wing hate groups get so much more attention than left wing.
However, the majority of us (left and right) should spend our energy rejecting (not supporting) this groups.
Gregory, Norman - Nov 21, 2008 at 7:39 pm
Sallie,
Yes, all race type crimes are hate crimes but don't belittle the right wing terrorist. Even the D.O article from a week ago states, "..they are more violent in nature.." then those on the left.
I don't think someone throwing blood on somebody wearing a fur is as scary as somebody wanted to put bullet in someones head (and striving for that goal).
Instead of those on the right going all schoolyard about. ("...but..but...Bobby did it too so, why am I in trouble?") It would be better for you guys, to whole heartedly and very vocally reject these groups before they start to gather a foothold.
Gregory, Norman - Nov 21, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Rhetoric James...
Rosey - I don't know but, I'm for sure that those on the right who are wishing for an Obama assassination FAR exceed those on the left who wished for a Bush one...but it doesn't matter..hate is hate.
Rev Wright - ZERO. Although he did accuse AMERICA (i.e. the government) of perpetuating aids and drugs on blacks. (He never said white people!)
However,...hate is hate.
Code Pink - never heard of them.
Rush Limbaugh - let's see...refering to Michelle and Barrack Obama as the "spade and the hoe". His little radio toon of "Barrack, the magic Negro". His comments about blacks raising their kids to be militants. Shall I go on? Ok..I will..
His referring to Chelsea Clinton as the white house pet.
He said Paul Hackett (a dem that ran for Ohio congress seat) only went to Iraq to "pad his resume." Surely, you didn't want to use Rush did you?
When he worked for ESPN, he decided to interject race as an issue when talking about Donovan McNabb. Why?
I digress however. The point is..hate is hate. Do you still listen to Rush? Of course, you do.
Did you still listen to Hannity after he gave a prominent Neo Nazi a pedestal by having him on his show on Faux to supposedly spill the dirt on Obama? yeap, you do...
I could go back and forth with you (and I could actually provide links) but, I choose not to. It is, afterall, pointless.
Whether you except it or not, right wing hate groups hurt you just as much as they hurt me (minorities or the left). Again, see Tim McVeigh..I'm sure a few die hard "ditto heads" died in OKC bombing as well as those on the left. Again, it's up to you to treat those how you would want to be treated.
Gregory, Norman - Nov 21, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Gregory, Norman...that was my point. Why are not crimes against whites considered a part of racial violence history?
Disruptive to a church service is to be disregarded why? If people were killed would it become more relevant? I am not comparing this to terrorism, just asking why churches are exempt from the basic rights as all others demand.
I continue to see that the right are the terrorists. Who were/are the PLO, Black Panthers, SBL (Patty Hearst) As they do not subscribe to any religious organization then they must be left wing.
Ideas? Opinions?
Sallie, Del City - Nov 21, 2008 at 7:20 pm
I wish the national media would realize that the "markets" are mostly functions of psyche. Therefore, constantly broadcasting the market ups and market downs to the general public is counter productive.
Using the "market" as a measurement of the economy is like thinking a certain beer taste good by just looking at the foam. That's what we've been doing for the past two decades. In the meantime, the beer has been slowly leaking out the bottom of the glass. The beer being the substance of the economy, the meat if you will. In my opinion, this is manufacturing. Manufacturing jobs are the meat of any economy. They are mini-hubs of the economy, as those jobs impact so many other jobs in and around the community that they are in. Wall street delighted with glee as companies closed doors here and moved those jobs to "low cost" geographies. Their response was that we would be a "service" economy. So much for that... The fact is that, while they might have a enjoyed a short term bump from the moves, in the long term, they just thinned out their customer base. Therefore, eventually, their sales would come in-line with their actions and that is what is happening now.
A pefect example is the Lucent plant on the west side of town. In reality, 10% of the OKC workforce, provided more revenue for the telecom industry (internet, wireless, home..etc), than all of the employees at the Mexican factories that the work went to.
Gregory, Norman - Nov 21, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Gregory, Norman
There is as much or more vitriol coming from the political left than the right. How many times has Rosie Odonnal wished for Bush to get assasinated? How many times did Rev. Wright wish all white people would die because somehow THEY created crack cocain and aids? How many people from the left ( say Code Pink for example ) cried tears of joy when Tony Snow had a relaps of prostate cancer? Not even Rush Limbaugh wished ill for Ted Kennedy when he found out about senator Kennedys brain canser. moveon.org and the daily cos have more hatred than in can stomache for more than a few minutes at a time.
james, oklahoma city - Nov 21, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Oklahoma is one of 17 states in the US that has hate crime legislation that covers just about everyone but gay people. Here are the 3 laws on the books in Oklahoma:
21 Okl. St. § 850
Covers damage to real or person property of another because of that person's race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, or disability
2001 OK.HB 1177 (eff. 11/01)
Prohibits assault or battery or threats toward another because of that person's race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin or disability. Also covers damage to property of another because of that person's race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin or disability.
21 Okl. St. § 1765
Covers willful injury to any house of worship or any part thereof, or property therein.
This is wrong and is a damn shame that we think so little of certain people that we would not extend this type of protection to very people who are routinely harrassed and the most likely to be victims of crimes targeted at them only because of who they are.
Kim, Yukon - Nov 21, 2008 at 6:55 pm
As my mom said, man is just inherently evil. Hate is one of those tenants. The easiest object of our hate are those that are different than ourselves, physically. It is an amazing and sad human trait.
Either way, I agree with my conservative friends on this, ALL crimes based on race should be classified as hate crimes.
Gregory, Norman - Nov 21, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Gregory, I went to San Antonio in 2001 with a fellow, born in Wisconsin, whose ancestry was from Mexico. After he was born he moved to Texas where he was the leader of the barrio (whatever that is). All the windows had bars as did the doors. He said to not get away from him as another white friend of his had done a few years earlier and was shot in the head by a kid needing to kill a gringo to get in the gang. That little incident made it really sink in wondering why people hate one another just because of race.
Floyd, Oklahoma City - Nov 21, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Mr. Wise, as is usual with those that listen to conservative media, is taking Obama completely out of context. In fact, both candidates wanted the same emissions reducing system.
So, I guess bankrupting the coal industry was McCain/Palin's plan also.
Gregory, Norman - Nov 21, 2008 at 6:31 pm
As for domestic terrorism, there's absolutely no comparison between gay rights advocates protesting in front of a church (even if it is disruptive to the church service) and someone blowing up buildings (From Tim McVeigh to abortion bombers).
The facts are domestic terrorists organizations on the right are organized, violent and far more dangerous than ANY on the left. I don't think there are any leftist organizations that call for exterminations of an entire race of people. That's common place on the right.
It does seem that most "normal" people on the right have gotten a bit looney after (and during) the election. I highly recommend you take a look at your kiddos and "check yourself". Think about what you want the future to look like and act accordingly. If you want peace, then act peacefully. If you want violence.....
Gregory, Norman - Nov 21, 2008 at 6:25 pm
You're right Sallie BUT, I believe that the term "hate crimes" is based on the history of racial violence. In history, it is overwhelmingly perpetuated by whites on minorities. However, "hate crimes" should be race neutral. So, those blacks who did that should also be charged with a hate crime.
I fail to understand why we (humans) tend to over compensate for past wrongs. This is just one example. There are many others.
Gregory, Norman - Nov 21, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Just a cut and paste for the entertainment of our readers. Before you jump on the bandwagon of Oh my God, not politically correct, read the full article.
Cleveland, Ohio. A white man on a moped accidentally bumped into a truck being driven by a black man. He fell over but was not injured. A crowd of 40 white people pulled the black driver from the truck and brutally beat him. One of them climbed in the truck and ran over the driver, killing him. The crowd cheered.
Jacksonville, Florida. A group of four to six white men agreed that they would brutalize the next black person they saw walking down the street. That person turned out to be a mentally disabled 50-year-old, whom they beat and stomped into unconsciousness. He later died of his injuries.
Are you surprised that you’ve never heard of these sickening murders based on racial hatred? You didn’t see saturation coverage on the news. You didn’t hear politicians decrying racism. You didn’t see a livid Jesse Jackson on CNN. Why? Because these acts of brutality didn’t happen exactly as I described above. Oh, they happened, all right. The only thing is, the races of the attackers and victims were reversed. That is, a white man was beaten and then crushed by a mob of 40 black people who were furious that a black man bumped into his truck.¹ In Jacksonville, it was a gang of black men who stomped a mentally-disabled man to death solely because he was white.²
Because these hate crimes were perpetrated by black against whites — even though they were based completely on racial hatred — the national media, politicians, and civil rights leaders ignored them.
Sallie, Del City - Nov 21, 2008 at 5:03 pm
One good reason for the term hate crime is that it only applies to minorities or those that are not considered to be in the mainstream of the populace. Crimes against white Christians, Rebublican, Democrat or athiests or those that practice witchcraft (exception,the Jewish faith or nationality or Muslims) are not considered hate crimes in any state of our nation. Look it up!
Sallie, Del City - Nov 21, 2008 at 5:00 pm
I'll answer my own question. In 1994 the Supreme Court unanimously decided RICO could be used to stop peaceful protests at abortion clinics. Unless the law has been modified, by the same token, the gays could be prevented from protesting too close to a meeting that opposes them.
Floyd, Oklahoma City - Nov 21, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Wasn't the RICO act enforced to keep anti- abortion rallies away from abortion clinics?
Floyd, Oklahoma City - Nov 21, 2008 at 4:41 pm
The penalties should be the same.
The problem ( from my point of view ) is that they are not being prosecuted due to their satus as an "oppressed minority".
i was trying to make a point to Stephen that some homosexuals ( far from all or even a large part of the homosexual movement) are using terrorisim to advance their agenda. Homosexual does not mean Passive nor does it mean Non-Violent.
james, oklahoma city - Nov 21, 2008 at 4:05 pm
James, using the logic that was used to prevent hate crime legislation from passing here in Oklahoma, if the groups could be convicted of assault on the old lady, they should be convicted. What further penalty would you add? If a group interrupts a church service, are they guilty of trespassing or other legal violation, then they should be convicted under normal law. Why would you define a different level of crime just because the criminals are gay?
Kim, Yukon - Nov 21, 2008 at 3:46 pm
Stephen , Ada
Radical Christians bombing abortion clinics was most definatly terrorisim. Setting bombs to cause death or terror fits into almost anyones defination of terrorism.
this is only a side note but when was the last time anyone bombed an abortion clinic? 20 years? 30 years? longer? No mainstream Christian church as EVER endorsed abortion clinic bombings. Protests Yes, many churches endorse protest abortion clinics. Bombings No, most Christians believe that bombings are as much murder as abortion.
james, oklahoma city - Nov 21, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Stephen, Ada
Less than a year ago a group of 30 or so homosexuals (wearing bondage gear) forced their way into a catholic church service and started screaming anti-christion propaganda. Since no one was physicall hurt you dont believe that it was a hate crime? Would you still believe the same thing if it was the KKK interrupting a babtist service?
A group of homosexuals attacked an old lady for having a sticker that said she voted for prop 8. Is that hate crime enough for you? Homosexuals were throwing rocks at people going to and coming from Mormon services because the church supported prop 8. Is that hate crime enough for you? Shouldnt people have the right to express their religion in peace without the threat of violence? I am not a mormon but i believe that they have a right to their own beliefs and be free to peacefully express their faith.
james, oklahoma city - Nov 21, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Nevermind Stephen, on second thought my question is irrevalent since Swedish law is different than ours.
Gail, Bethany - Nov 21, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Stephen: If your statement "a hate crime involves an act of personal violence against another's person or propery", then why was the minister in Sweden arrested under Sweden's hate law because he delivered a sermon in his church in which he quoted scripture that dealt with the topic of homosexuality?
Gail, Bethany - Nov 21, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Bert, re your 7:28 and 7:50 a.m. posts, I'm not defending anyone. My point was that we ought not just fling the allegation of "terrorism" around to suit whatever ideological purposes or sympathies we may have at the moment. (You may notice: That's also my position with respect to folks' use of other terms, like "socialism.") My views on gay rights are pretty much irrelevant to my post about what is and isn't terrorism.
(That said, I've got no problem in the world with gay unions, equal rights, and protections against those who would discriminate based solely on sexual orientation. As the saying goes, one can be straight without being narrow.)
And while your assessment of whether my question was intelligent or not notwithstanding, your response was interesting. You argued that those who bomb clinics and/or maim/kill abortion doctors are some sort of extreme fringe but ignored the question of whether or not they are "terrorists." Yet a relatively small group of gay activists disrupt a church service, and suddenly they are lumped in with white supremacist hate groups? That's a pretty ridiculous allegation, to me, and that's more or less what Mr. Dukes argued in his letter.
I ain't buying it.
Stephen, Ada - Nov 21, 2008 at 1:54 pm
James, re your 11:44 a.m. post, what crime are you alleging was committed by the staging of a protest? I'm not condoning the activity, but what crime is committed by "interfer[ing] with a christian sunday service"?
Typically, like terrorism, a hate crime involves an act of personal violence against another's person or property. Without condoning a church service disruption, I hardly think there's anyway it could qualify as a "hate crime" without such violence.
Stephen, Ada - Nov 21, 2008 at 1:42 pm
I love the radical gay liberals who are just fine with the first amendment - as long as it only serves their interest.
Robert, Oklahoma City - Nov 21, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Floyd, you can't be serious about hate letters from liberals and Gays . They wouldn't do such a thing they are progressive and will only bring forth peace and good will.
jeff, Harrah - Nov 21, 2008 at 12:45 pm
James great post, Floyd yes I do.
jeff, Harrah - Nov 21, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Don't any of you remember when Sally Kern was under the spotlight and the Forum was loaded with hateful letters from gays?
Floyd, Oklahoma City - Nov 21, 2008 at 12:36 pm
If a homosexual group interferes with a christian sunday service shouldnt that qualify as a hate crime? Or is it only a hate crime if a bigot attacks a homosexual? Im just trying to be clear. If the KKK tried to have a rally in a babtist church it would most definatly be a hate crime. Somehow homosexuals doing the same thing in a catholic church does not qualify as a hate crime. At what point does freedom of religon get trumped by someone elses freedom of expression.
james, oklahoma city - Nov 21, 2008 at 11:44 am
re: "Lack of health coverage could hurt fans", Kim Holland is really now promoting Big Brother in grandiose style! Does she really believe that anyone who can't afford health insurance can afford season tickets for OU or OSU football games? How about the slim hope of supplementing one's diet through hunting and fishing? Ma'am, My wife and I are both in our 60's, children grown and gone, and we both work and do have health insurance, but our co-pays are so high we can only afford to see our doctor in the most dire of circumstances. Overall healthcare costs are so far out of control that us little average Joe's are barely making it anyhow, so you be sure to add another government beaurocracy and more taxes to our already overburdened lives. I'm afraid this country is about to go under the way of the Romans, and I only pray that Social Security will still be there for me, if I can ever afford to retire.
D. E. Garrett, Wellston
David, Oklahoma City - Nov 21, 2008 at 11:38 am
Sallie, I pretty much agree with your assessment of the "Patriot Act." Fear is a great motivator. Jeff, one more question for you. In your post of 8:20 this morning you wrote, "I just believe they are more comfortable with the same sex in discusiing (sic) personal matters but in the same token (what ever that means) aren't we all that way, the only difference is we call them friends, so that takes me back to it's all about the sexual act..." Jeff, apparently I don't feel the same way about my male "friend"s as you do. I have never wanted to be intimate with any of them. Quite frankly, I only feel that way about women. Do your friends know you feel this way about them?
Cale, oklahoma city - Nov 21, 2008 at 11:21 am
To me the terms "upscale restaurant" or "upscale clothing store" are in the same category with "high class call girl". Just overpriced for the same thing.
Floyd, Oklahoma City - Nov 21, 2008 at 11:20 am
40+ hardly qualifies me for young, Gary, but yes, you're right. I miswrote what I meant and it didn't make sense. But you did call me stupid instead of asking for clarification or providing clarification for what you probably knew I meant.
Melissa, Norman - Nov 21, 2008 at 11:13 am
jeff, Harrah...I don't even smoke and I did vote no. Failure to recognize hypocrisy and theft can be made easy by those who disapprove of smoking, but now that the State robs from the very dollars they were so eager to get for a so-called health program reveal the true reasons for a blatant tax on a specific segement of the populace and yet the same voters who approved of the tax remain silent. It makes me ashamed of out State Capitol and our silent voters who sit back and allow such chicanery. (spelling)
Sallie, Del City - Nov 21, 2008 at 11:04 am
But Melissa - you didn't say they were income, you said they were DEDUCTIONS. And young lady, don't call someone an asshat when they call you on your stupid remarks. Can't stand the heat; stay out of the kitchen.
Gary, Oklahoma City - Nov 21, 2008 at 10:58 am
Sallie, most should have seen this when Oklahoma had a state vote on to raise the tobbacco tax. The state has seen an increase in tax revenue but where's the cancer center Henry was to build. They aslo have spent the funds and the tax has fallen short of specualtion. Anytime you allow Government to sue an industry their is foul play. ! they are protecting the industry from individual lawsuits while they are getting their share of the pie. Edmondson gave Turpen's firm the lawsuit where Turpin made 80 million. The victims are the smokers themselves not the state.
jeff, Harrah - Nov 21, 2008 at 10:52 am
Gary, they are income with associated fees and interests that reduce AGI.
And stop being an asshat. If you want to educate people, how about you do it instead of insult them.
Melissa, Norman - Nov 21, 2008 at 10:47 am
Mary Lou, how many people actually WORK at those upscale restaurants and boutiques? I understand that there is some number, but honestly to use that as an argument against 'overtaxing' the rich. GS and MS set aside BILLIONS for BONUSES...not even just income, but when they are averaging three million dollars in a BONUS, I'm thinking even half of what they come home with is more than enough to cover their butts.
The majority of people aren't working there, they're the people working out here helping the not-so-rich.
Melissa, Norman - Nov 21, 2008 at 10:46 am
Patricia - where do you get your information for your argument - the dnc talking points? And Melissa - I hope your not as stupid as your previous post where you said ... "properties,dividends, capital gains...once you deduct all of those..". Hey stupid, those are NOT DEDUCTIONS, THEY ARE INCOME which are added to any other income to make up the AGI. Boy Melissa, I hope you're husband or someone else prepares your tax returns. My advice to you, honey, is to stay off of these subjects you know nothing about. You'll be doing everybody (including yourself) a favor.
Gary, Oklahoma City - Nov 21, 2008 at 10:45 am
Oh, I need to read more or travel more than I can accept the queers quest. Give me a freakin break.. When gays are chained and made to work I'll gladly lead the freedom charge, but to include Marriage instead of civil unions, I'll lead against, The last I checked gays can go anywhere they want, eat anywhere the Comparison is ridicolous cale, how would slavery directly affect you?
jeff, Harrah - Nov 21, 2008 at 10:43 am
Cale, Okc....this has nothing to do with today's posting. I just wanted you to know that I fully intend to send this to Edmondson, Inhofe and Coburn along with my local rep. Inman. Of course I intend to add more to my commentary. Homeland Security/Patriot Act can monitor this e mail. Fine! Freedom of speech/expression must come first.
This is from MSN today.
Consider this the next time you see a teenager take a drag on a cigarette: Your state government likely has a financial stake in that kid continuing to smoke. And quite possibly, so does your retirement portfolio.
That was hardly the intention 10 years ago, when a collection of state attorneys general delivered a crushing blow to Big Tobacco. On Nov. 23, 1998, the nation's four largest cigarette sellers agreed to pay $200 billion over 30 years in what seemed like a victory for David over Goliath. The money was supposed to help the states pay for health care and anti-smoking campaigns. Instead, much of it -- even payments that aren't due for 20 years -- has already been spent on politically popular tax breaks through complicated borrowing schemes initiated by Wall Street investment banks.
Because these states have essentially borrowed against future payments from the tobacco industry, they are now dependent on the continued vitality of cigarette sales. If Big Tobacco stumbles, states will be on the hook for these massive, billion-dollar loans. In other words, David and Goliath are now allies.
This is from the Daily Oklahoman.
Legislators this year used $108 million from the special health fund to balance the $7.1 billion budget for the fiscal year that began July 1. The fund was set up when voters in 2004 approved a tobacco tax increase.
The fund had a surplus of about $115 million; during the last fiscal year about $18 million more came into the fund than was spent. Most of the $108 million taken from the fund — about $70 million — was given to the Oklahoma Health Care Authority to replace lost federal funding.
And this little hypocritical Hitler wants to be Governor. ppppffffttttt
Sallie, Del City - Nov 21, 2008 at 10:37 am
Also, I'm curious....if we're looking at how much the rich are paying percentage wise, of taxes, can we also look at the percentage of the wealth in this country they own?
For example...a quote:
"The top one percent of U.S. taxpayers (annual income over $313,469) made 20.8 percent of the income earned in 2000 and paid 37.4 percent of the total federal individual income taxes collected that year."
So the people who are paying 60% make what percent of the wages earned?
Melissa, Norman - Nov 21, 2008 at 10:34 am
Well, if Gary's brother-in-law says it, it must be true......(haha)
Patricia, Oklahoma City - Nov 21, 2008 at 10:32 am
But Gary, what percentage of gross income? AGI has subtracted all the deductions that the rich are more likely to have....annuities, properties, dividends, capital gains...once you deduct all of those...how much of their income is truly left to tax?
And we make less than $100,000 a year together and still spend nearly half of our income on taxes...so the 'rich' argument isn't really that interesting to me.
Melissa, Norman - Nov 21, 2008 at 10:27 am
Actually, there is much dispute about that quote. There is no evidence that he ever wrote that and most scholars believe it is not true.
Patricia, Oklahoma City - Nov 21, 2008 at 10:27 am
I assume everyone knows the role Thomas Jefferson played regarding the Constitution of the United States; therefore, you may also like to know what he wrote concerning democracy: "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51 percent of the people may
take away the rights of the other 49." (Thank God for Parliament)
Free, Vancouver BC - Nov 21, 2008 at 10:17 am
The definition of "terrorism" has been expanding since 2001. In other states common criminals (strong arm robbers) have been charged with laws meant to be applied to real terrorists. When governments fail to get the results they wanted, they often turn on their own citizens in a zeal to use their new found powers. It started in the 60's with the war on the counterculture, and since the citizens have bought the argument, it probaly will never end.
Kevin, Shawnee - Nov 21, 2008 at 10:07 am
Jamie - you are so naive and always drunk on the koolaid. WHO do you think pays most the taxes in this country - the poor? If you do then I've got some ocean-side property in McClain County that I will sell you. The top 10% of wage earners in this country pay 60% of the taxes. My brother-in-law who is a CPA tells me some of his rich clients pay almost 50% of their AGI in taxes (state and federal). Maybe you think they should pay more - of course, then they would have to lay off people. You're a joke, Jamie.
Gary, Oklahoma City - Nov 21, 2008 at 9:50 am
Cale, okc....with Homeland Security and the Patriot Act the government is now in every room of our homes, phones and internet.
We have a wonderful piece of paper that says freedom of speech, along with these two pieces of paper that say "Maybe".
Sallie, Del City - Nov 21, 2008 at 9:25 am
Mary Lou Bates: Overtaxing the rich? When did that happen?
Jamie, Lexington - Nov 21, 2008 at 9:17 am
Allen H. Wise: Unfortunately coal is a dirty fuel that carries environmental consequences that affect health along with air and water quality. I hope to see a return to consideration of nuclear fuel for electricity. I don't think that President-elect Obama wants to eliminate jobs, but to create different jobs.
Jamie, Lexington - Nov 21, 2008 at 9:16 am
Now that the left is in charge, they will take strategic plans in deconstructing America, and especially the not-so-popular groups that people join, the groups that make America great because a person can join. Or should I say, MADE America great. The new terrorism will be refocused from overseas to internal and we will start seeing the not-so-popular groups being raided and rounded up under the excuse of terrorism, like we saw in the 90s. That is what liberals do: deconstruct America.
Jack, Oklahoma city - Nov 21, 2008 at 9:14 am
Matthew Dukes: Picking targets seems to be something the US does a lot of-maybe not too well. Most of them seem to carry collateral damage.
Jamie, Lexington - Nov 21, 2008 at 9:07 am
The democracts will never run another white candidate for president again. In 30 years, the blacks will own the democrat party and it will be the whites (repubs and indies) vs the blacks (demos). Black people have created another divid. I am so proud. (sarcasm)
Jack, Oklahoma city - Nov 21, 2008 at 9:03 am
Patricia, Jeff only believes in "majority rule" when he is in the majority. John Stuart Mill wrote and believed in a concept of majority will which is considerably different that majority rule. While Jefferson "borrowed extensively from John Locke, he was way ahead of the curve when it came to individual liberty. Jeff, go to the library and read Mill's "On Liberty" and "Locke's 2nd Treatise of Government." You may well be enlightened.
Cale, oklahoma city - Nov 21, 2008 at 9:00 am
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