Letters to the Editor: Saturday, July 12, 2008

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Published: July 12, 2008

Clean up downtown businesses
Now that we're officially an NBA city and now that we've had time to celebrate and pat ourselves on the back, it's time for the business owners along the Interstate 40 corridor to clean up their act. Unfortunately, the city doesn't have the resources to "police” this matter, but many businesses downtown are just plain ugly. A few cans of paint aren't that expensive.

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I live in Yukon and have to abide by the ordinances there. And if I lived in Oklahoma City, you can bet I'd have to do the same there. I'm tired of using a certain I-40 on-ramp and seeing all the old tires piled behind a particular tire shop there. Move them or put them in a privacy fenced area. I'm tired of all the uncut weeds growing out of the cracked sidewalks and parking areas. And I'm especially tired of the litter and the loiterers in the area of Shartel and Reno.

The eyes of the country, and perhaps the world, will be on Oklahoma City now more than ever. Is this the best we can do?

Boyd D. Bible, Yukon

The only remedy
As ministers, Scott Jones and Jeni Markham Clewell (Your Views, June 28) express support for "hate crimes” legislation and their desire for a "compassionate” society expressed via our laws. Yet they demonstrate uncompassionate hearts by normalizing homosexuality. They should be ashamed because they ignore the sinfulness of man and denigrate the righteous moral law of God. The very definition of "justice” is exclusive; building a society that rejects immorality is one that exclusively seeks justice. Jesus Himself is quite exclusive: "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me,” He said.

True compassion proclaims His truth and law, demonstrating that all of us are sinners and guilty of vast rebellion; this should pierce our hearts, lead to repentance and have us rely upon His grace through faith. Paul stated in Galatians "that the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” This truth is the only remedy to our hate-filled society!

Finally, I don't care if Jones and Clewell think I'm full of "hate.” I will always say that homosexuality is an example of the depravity of man; luring them away from Christ's shed blood is another. Jones and Clewell should stop reforming society through the normalization of unrighteous behavior and start fighting for the truth!

Phillip W. Smith, Oklahoma City

Do the research
"Multiple choices: Marketplace challenges public schools” (Your Views, July 6) convincingly presents many choices for schooling "beyond just the school down the street.” These choices include public, private, charter, virtual and homeschooling. The study of Paul DiPerna from the Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice clearly indicates that it's not just Oklahomans who prefer private schools; parents in states such as Idaho, Tennessee, Nevada and Illinois also value private schooling for their kids. But how are parents going to choose the school right for their kids in the wilderness when there's little knowledge on the existence of such schools in Oklahoma?

Some parents, especially new immigrants, often prefer the public school in the neighborhood or a short bus ride away, regardless of their family position and child's interests. Studies show there is no researching on the part of these parents, some of whom sometimes rule out private schools simply on financial grounds; others think that, comparatively, "private schools offer a superior education.”

Parents should do some research. Information about schools can be obtained from the Council for American Private Education, the National Center for Education Statistics, the American School Directory, newspapers, parent-teacher organizations and the schools themselves. Options under the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 can't be overlooked.


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Phillip W. Smith, if you want a religious fundamentalist government, then please move to another country. When we founded the United States, we created a government that does not enforce anybody's particular brand of religion, and I don't think now is the time to start. People on the right are always trying to make the argument of "America...love it or leave it." Well, I love America and the freedom it stands for, if you don't like it Phillip, then leave.
woman in okc, Oklahoma City - Jul 28, 2008 11:17 AM
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Bert, just to add a specific example to Molly's post, which version of the bible should one trust when two or more translations conflict? Such as Colossians 2:13-14. In the New International Version, that passage can be read as supporting the view that Christians are excused from any and all adherence to Jewish law, including the basic laws of the Noahidic covenant (i.e., "…he forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross"). But in the New Revised Standard Version, the translated words do not provide such support (i.e., "…he forgave us all our trespasses, erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross.") Again, I respect that we are touchy waters when getting into personal religious beliefs, but when I see examples like this (and there are many; and many, many more that predate our modern translations) that seem to reflect more than sloppiness but a personal ideological preference, it requires one to step back from the text--step back from the black and white of it and search for the meaning between the words, between the lines. To adopt, akin to Molly's point and the Talmudic tradition of Judaism, more of a poetry reading posture than a cut-and-dry, "this is the Word" posture. This may sound like splitting hairs, at some level, but it gets to a fundamental difference between different groups, ALL of whom share a respect for the traditions involved. Anyway, just checked in on this string and felt the need to add that.
Stephen, Ada - Jul 13, 2008 8:37 PM
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Bert, I was thinking about this conversation as I was driving to church this morning. Yes, I do go to one of those "controversial" churches that dare say *everyone* is welcome. The motto of the United Church of Christ came to mind when thinking about this conversation--in the words of Gracie Allen, "Never place a period where God has put a comma" followed by "God is still speaking." It's my opinion that people who say that the bible is the end-all, be-all for salvation and the only way to worship God, a period is being place. If a fundamentalist chooses to follow the bible, he or she should follow it in *every* aspect then, instead of picking and choosing the parts that best suit them as they like to accuse those of us who don't believe that homosexuality is a sin of doing. In Phillip Smith's case, he's not the better Christian than he's trying to come across as being because he's judging a group of people (which the bible doesn't condone), judging in a *hurtful* way so in my opinion, he's definitely not being very Christian-like and needs to examine his own soul before casting judgment on others.
Molly, Oklahoma City - Jul 13, 2008 1:12 PM
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Bert said (1): "No Molly it was not man thar decided what went into the bible but God who decided.And that includes translations. If it was man that decided the bible would in fact be worthless." And Bert said (2): "If you do not believe the bible is true and has mistakes then you cannot believe that God is the Creator and has the keys to eternal life." Whoa! That's some serious stuff. Let's get back to the original bit here, Brother Smith's letter, a diatribe of judgment and hostility that takes one narrow reading of certain passages of the bible to condemn two specific people and, by implication, an entire group of other people. Use of "God's word" in such a manner is a time honored practice--by fundamentalists, by Islamic extremists, and various totalitarian regimes. Such use has nothing to do with personal views on salvation or anything else; it has to do with casting another as the "evil" other and claiming authority from "God" to condemn them from all manner of rights, benefits, or position. Bert, to my mind, that is the consequence of the narrow and rigid views you espouse. But to be clear, I do not have any issue with your personal beliefs regarding your own views on God. That's your business. But when (a) that fundamentalist viewpoint becomes a basis for public policy making, as it often is in Oklahoma; and (b) such fundamentalist viewpoint is wholly impervious to any contrary viewpoint, which it essentially is by definition, then I reject it. Completely. As for the bible as apparently written by God through man's hands . . . I view that as an ahistoric superstition, ultimately invented by those who founded the Catholic church in order to quell what was viewed as heresies. It is a superstition designed to stop discussion, which I see as tragic. But as far as that making the bible worthless, well, that's a leap in logic that just doesn't follow. Nonetheless, so be it.
Stephen, Ada - Jul 13, 2008 8:22 AM
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Lance, But I offered to write a special letter to the editors to inform them of your very high intelligence and that you are willing to provide them with the very valuable service of censorship
BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 13, 2008 7:53 AM
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Molly, As I said before. The God I serve is all powerful. And I believe the bible is true from the first book to the last book. If you do not believe the bible is true and has mistakes then you cannot believe that God is the Creator and has the keys to eternal life.
BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 13, 2008 7:52 AM
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Bert said, "If the bible has man made mistakes either from the original writer or from the men that translated the bible how would we know what is the truth or what is a mistake. If that is the case the bible would be a worthless book." Which is my point exactly--we don't know without a doubt--and why I feel that it's dangerous to take the bible and go by it *word for word* as fundamentalists do instead of focusing on the overall message of loving each other.
Molly, Oklahoma City - Jul 13, 2008 6:28 AM
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*Yawn* Bert, I write this paper all the time. they haven't printed a letter of mine in years. As an Oklahoman living elsewhere, I know what the stereotypes are. They aren't pretty. On the surface, people like you (the stereotype) don't care. But ultimately, it cuts into the bottom line. Either way, you live in a fantasy world and it's not worth discussing things with you. Enjoy the magic of that comes from drilling in Alaska and Winning the War on Terror (tm).
Lance, From OK, now in Upstate New York - Jul 12, 2008 11:24 PM
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Molly, It boils down to this. If the bible has man made mistakes either from the original writer or from the men that translated the bible how would we know what is the truth or what is a mistake. If that is the case the bible would be a worthless book.
BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 12, 2008 9:23 PM
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Molly, If the bible has mistakes either from the original writings or from later translations then it would mean God can make a mistake. he cannot
BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 12, 2008 8:55 PM
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Molly, Man can make mistakes. God cannot, The bible is the writings of God put on paper by man with the inspiration of God. I do not believe that God would let any word be a mistake in the bible as it is for history and guidence of his people. No Molly it was not man thar decided what went into the bible but God who decided.And that includes translations. If it was man that decided the bible would in fact be worthless.
BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 12, 2008 8:54 PM
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But it was *man* who decided what went into the bible, it was *man* who translated and it's *man* who most likely made mistakes in the translations. You can't have it both ways Bert--you said that "But the God I serve I believe is powerful enough to make sure the translations are correct." but we're talking about *man*, who is not on the same level as God (which is what you said), and who translated the bible and who is currently interpreting it (and interpreting differently from person to person, which is what I was pointing out) and who you just said could make mistakes and cannot be on the same level as God. You yourself are putting man on the same level as God by accepting that the bible is absolutely, 100% correct in every area--no mistakes and yet you said that won't work. How do you reconcile that?
Molly, Oklahoma City - Jul 12, 2008 8:17 PM
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Lance , One last thing , Would you give me your permission to inform the Oklahoman of your high intelligence and of your willingness to provide them with a valuable service of censorship of all letters to the editor?
BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 12, 2008 7:33 PM
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Molly, You are trying to put man on the same level as God. That will not work
BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 12, 2008 7:28 PM
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Lance, Have you written a letter to the Daily Oklahoman telling them that they would look a lot more intelligent if they would first send the letters they recieve to you so you could tell them which ones they could print and which one they should not print? Have you told them in any way that you are willing to be a letter censor for them at little or no charge. I just cannot understand how they could refuse your services if you have written them. Have you not told them how intelligent you are and informed them of what they are missing by not using your services that you are so willing to provide to them?
BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 12, 2008 7:27 PM
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Lance. You are no longer in Oklahoma. You are in upstate New York. So any thing that makes us look ignorant in your books would not effect you. But I still cann ot understand why the Oklahoman continues to print letters from anyone before you have had a chance to okay the letter. How dare they
BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 12, 2008 7:11 PM
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Molly, You are talking about 2 different things, The pastors are not God and I suppose one or both could make a mistake. But you cannot put man no matter who he is on the level of God. You were talking about mistakes in the bible partly due to translation. I said and still believe that God inspired the writing and god does not make mistakes. And I hardly think that God would destroy a city because of inhospitality. And I have not shown any disrespect to you that I know of unless disagreeing with you is being disrespectful.
BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 12, 2008 7:09 PM
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As OKC is now an "NBA City" and people from around the country come to visit, I sincerely hope that this paper stop printing letters from the pulpit like Phillip Smith's. Nothing makes us look more hick than letters talking about "Christ's shed blood". Note to fundies (including the editors to this paper): you aren't the only people on earth, even if you think you are. If you want business and economic growth in OKC and in Oklahoma, quit being so parochial. Otherwise, build your business model after Afghanistan and wallow in ignorance and poverty.
Lance, From OK, now in Upstate New York - Jul 12, 2008 6:45 PM
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But Bert, whose truth isn't a mistake? Take 2 pastors who preach on the same piece of scripture--dare I open up a can of worms but let's say the scripture about Sodom--one pastor interprets it to be about homosexuality being sinful and another pastor interprets it to be about inhospitality. Which one is "correct?" To both individuals, they are speaking God's truth and you yourself said that God doesn't make mistakes so that would imply that both are correct. You can't come back and say that the first pastor is automatically correct--you'd be totally disregarding the fact that people are going to have different interpretations. My point is that to use the bible in such a black and white manner in today's world when there is obviously so many shades of gray is hurtful to so many, even to you, Bert, because it shuts you off from seeing and appreciating all of God's creatures and the fact that God beyond the pages of the bible. I respect that your belief system is vastly different than mine when it comes to the bible--why is it that those of us who view it differently don't get the same respect in return?
Molly, Oklahoma City - Jul 12, 2008 6:17 PM
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Stephen, My point and opinion is that Gods word is the truth and no i am not willing to accept the fact that the God I serve who in my opinion is all powerful would allow writers to make mistakes in the words he gave during or even before a translation/ And Yes i sam very rigid in that view. And yes my mind is made up to the fact that Gods word is the truth and in his word is the key to eternal life. But another truth is that I nor any other person that I know that believes that Christ died for my sins and only theu him can you inherit eternal life is putting a gun to your head or bombing you if you do not believe as we do
BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 12, 2008 5:18 PM
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Actually, Bert, what makes Molly's arguments unavailing where you are concerned is that you are (a) not listening and (b) choosing not to engage. Based on your statements, it sounds like your view of "God's word" is made up and there's no point revisiting the matter. That sort of belief system places you in a rigid, closed loop that is impervious to any thought or word that does not fit. Whether or not God makes mistakes is non-responsive to her thoughtfully made points (with which, not that it's relevant, I fully agree). In other words, you aren't interested in a discussion; you are interested in projecting your views out there for others to accept or reject. So be it. But as Molly soundly points out, when any projected view, sent out absolutely and without question, then becomes the basis for determining what others may or may not do or be protected from (which is certainly the case with the right-wing fundamentalist wing of this Nation's political system), well, then we've got a serious problem. Then it's not being neutrally put out there; it is being dictated. Reminds me of the bumper sticker: "Dear, God, please save me from your followers."
Stephen, Ada - Jul 12, 2008 4:39 PM
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BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 12, 2008 4:03 PM
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Molly, I have made mistakes all my life and I imagine I will continue to make mistakes until the day I die. However the big difference here and what makes your arguement to no avail is that I am not God. God does not make mistakes
BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 12, 2008 4:02 PM
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Bert, have you ever made a mistake in your life, believing that you were serving God in doing so? Who is to say that the same thing didn't happen during the translations of the bible? It is your right to believe the way that you do and it's my right to believe the way that I do but when one side, i.e. the "Christian right," tries to force their belief system onto others to the point of affecting one's way of living and safety, then it's not a case of respecting another's belief system. I also believe that people are going to interpret the bible differently based on their life experiences and that *no one's* interpretation is 100% accurate for *everyone* and to try to say one interpretation is correct versus another is ridiculous. For example, think about a piece of poetry--for one person reading it, it might make them cry. For another person, it might make them laugh--it all depends on their live experiences and where they are in the journey of life. Same piece of poetry but it has a vastly different affect on 2 individuals. I look at the individual passages in the bible the same way so I choose to focus on the overall, bigger message. That's what works for me--I realize that it doesn't work for others based on their life experiences but I'm not trying to force my way of thinking onto others to the point of causing hurt and harm. Why can't the other side, e.g. the Phillip Smiths of the world, do the same?
Molly, Oklahoma City - Jul 12, 2008 3:10 PM
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Molly: Amen (and I say that both sincerely and ironically!).

Joesph: I don't go to church, but for different reasons. And I've given up on my subscription to the Daily Oklahoma since it's a worthless rag of a "news"paper, but I actually think that these discussion forums can be a relatively thoughtful place, from time to time, not merely on issues pseudo-theological. And out in the hinterland as I am, believe me when I say that I appreciate that! Glad we all can be of service to you. ;-)

Take care.
Stephen, Ada - Jul 12, 2008 2:46 PM
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molly, yes there have been tranlatiions. But the God I serve I believe is powerful enough to make sure the translations are correct. And the bible says there is only one way to God when Christ said the only way to God was thru him.
BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 12, 2008 2:36 PM
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One thing about Oklahoma that has never ceased to amaze me since I moved here is the number of resident theologians. We apparently have more theologians per capita than even the Vatican. I no longer go to church. Don't have to; I read the letters to the editor. And the Summa Theologica doesn't hold a candle to inspired word of God that flows from the population of Oklahoma like the waters of the Niagara. Where is this Theological center that so many Oklahomans have attended?
joseph, oklahoma city - Jul 12, 2008 2:19 PM
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Bert, I agree with you to an extent that the bible is the inspired word of God but I whole-heartedly agree with Stephen that too much has been lost in translation and that it's been "edited" by flawed humans (and let's not forget that there are many more books that were once part of the bible that were chosen not to be removed--makes you wonder about the rationale and reasoning of those who decided all of that. Divinely inspired? Yes. Exactly "word of God" by God? Hardly--too many flawed humans with their own version of "the truth" come into play.) To take a document that was inspired thousands of years ago, about life as it was known thousands of years ago, passed down verbally for centuries and translated many times over from its original language and to try and apply it word for word to life today is ludicrous. To me, I look at the larger message from the bible, the part that I believe to be "God's word"--treat people with love, respect and compassion, including oneself--basically the "Golden Rule." By treating others well, everything else falls into place. But to use the bible to continually judge and condemn others, as what Phillip Smith is doing--I highly doubt that's what God had in mind for us to do with His "inspired word" and I have a feeling that if Jesus were walking around today, He'd be pretty p*ssed off. I only know my "truth"--what I feel God is telling me. There is more than one way to God--people need to be respectful of that and not use God to hurt others. To me, and I suspect to most, that's not being a good Christian.
Molly, Oklahoma City - Jul 12, 2008 1:32 PM
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Bert, and I want to emphasize that I am saying this respectfully, but I only partially agree. Divine inspiration has influenced the bible--and some other scriptural writings--I have no problem accepting that. But those are still "inspirations" received by humans who have then recorded, and recorded, interpreted, and passed down for now thousands of years. There is quite a bit of static in that dynamic, and--for me--reading the bible (or any scripture) requires careful reflection before one can determine any "truth." And even then, that conclusion of what is that "truth" is going to be limited since, unavoidably, it comes from a human. I do not think, at all, that scripture is clear on many points other than certain basics; when I hear scripture invoked for certain positions regarding homosexuality, I hear a lot of projected and conflicting constructions, there, that I cannot accept. Now, all that said, I'm really taking exception only with your first sentence and the exclusivity of one construction of the words attributed to Jesus as the way, the light, and the path. But those exceptions (which are perhaps more nuanced than is necessary for a Daily Oklahoman e-forum!) are just what they are: (a) my views and (b) not directed at the wholeness of what you wrote. Anyway, I'll end my self-indulgent ramblings here. Take care.
Stephen, Ada - Jul 12, 2008 1:19 PM
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BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 12, 2008 12:20 PM
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Stephen, the bible is the inspired word of God. Now if you are saying that just religion, any religion, or a church will save you then I agree with you. The bible plainly tells us of the way to salvation. And it also plainly tells us of those that will not find the salvation and as a result of their ways will not enter Heaven and eternal Life. It is up to each person to find his or her own salvation . And that way is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. I feel there will be people from every religion that believes that Christ died for us and has accepted his forgiveness in heaven. There will probably be those that thought that a church or religion would pave their way into heaven not make it to heaven
BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 12, 2008 12:20 PM
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Terry, are you weighing in against Bob and Ianez or against Phillip Smith? I can't tell.

To my mind, there is a BIG difference between the teachings of Christ and the modern church, in all its various and often conflicting iterations. When it comes to the "church," i.e., most of organized religion, I tend to agree with Bob and Ianez. And it makes me pretty much shut down when seeing the kind of zealotry espoused by the original letter writer.

And, respectfully, I never quite can get my heard around the argument that the bible (which is a document that has copied and translated thousands upon thousands of times by thousands of thousands of separate actors, each of whom is a flawed human being and many of whom had very specific agendas) and the "church" (which is a multi-faceted and non-homogenous institution created by a plentitude of flawed humnans, most of whom have been driven by personal ambitions and political views) can be lumped together into some sort of inarguably "clear" truth. And if we're leaving Leviticus behind, where does the damnation of homosexuality come from? Paul? Sorry, but Paul ain't Christ?

Most all of the so-called "Christian" agenda items of the modern "church" based political movement are based on "truths" that are, in turn, based on some pretty tortured constructions of what folks have accepted as the bible. Well, that . . . and personal judgments, prejudices, and intolerances, none of which seem to square with Christ's teachings when taken as a whole. Those sort of positions strike me as more akin to the mind set that leads to the bombing of abortion clinics and "infidels," which takes us pretty far from where I wish we could go.
Stephen, Ada - Jul 12, 2008 11:51 AM
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Bob and lanez, in my opinion the bible is the truth and the only treth.However no one is forcing you to believe it. No one is putting a gun to your head or bombing you because you do not believe. But there will be a day when a person that does not believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation will regret their decision to turn away from him. The bible is plain on many topics and is also plain on what will happen if a person or a nation turns away from Christ. We are seeing the results of this every day and we are also seeing what the bible said will happen is happening. Christianity offers Eternal Life. That is compassion
BERT, HENRYETTA - Jul 12, 2008 7:59 AM
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Well put, Bob. I couldn't agree with you more.
lanez, Edmond - Jul 12, 2008 7:46 AM
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Phillip W. Smith, Christianity offers no compassion. It only offers keeping all people down and subservient. Where has it been written that Christianity, and the Christian Bible, are the ultimate authority? All religions have that, so ultimately *WHO* is right? Probably no one, but quit shoving your beliefs down other people's throats.
Bob, Wellston - Jul 12, 2008 7:12 AM
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I guess Bob and Ianez have completely forgotten the Sermon on the Mount, and most famous of Christ's teachings: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." The bible also condemn people of color, specifically black individuals, by saying that they bear the mark of cain....the bible approved of slavery, stoning, etc. Better to believe in the true teachings of Christ rather than the hateful condemnation of people filled with fear rather than with the love of the Christ. As you might recall, moving away from the old testament with its laws of leviticus, that Christ said "I am the way, the new covenant." You who twist the words of the Christ to suit your own agenda may be the ones who will be called to answer for your unjust, lack of compassion.
Terri, Oklahoma City - Jul 12, 2008 8:14 AM
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