Ron, Oklahoma City...one more thing...just one more thing! In case you don't make the decision now, please always do remember... You can ask Jesus into your heart anytime, any where...you don't have to have a preacher at your side..even in heat of battle you can ask Jesus to come into your heart and into your life. You don't have to make an appointment! He is waiting.

Ron..I have left you 4 messages below.

P.S.S. Ron, Oklahoma City, I also want you to know and to remember that there are thousands upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands who are praying to God through His Son,Jesus Christ, for the our troops, the mission and for the end of this war. It is through Jesus that we are saved. I pray that you will find the desire to talk with a pastor or your chaplain soon... and before you depart. It is not that I do not respect your right to disbelieve...that is not it at all. It would have been easier just to forget what you really said and not talked to you about this at all.

TO CLARIFY...I do not personally endorse Life Church. I personally know nothing about Life Church. I admit that it would not be my preference. I have only mentioned it after realizing non-believers were checking this discussion question. It came to my attention that they might be searching for answers to their disbelief. So after checking with a Christian minister of a certain denomination to see if it might be a genuine Christian non-demoninational church, I felt I should make amends for the rather strong disapproval I previously posted. I have been told that LifeChurch does embrace basic orthodox tenants of Christianity. However, I have not further verified that information and am relying only on one source though it is a source I believe to be reliable. I will not pursue it any further. I do feel it might be preferrable for those seeking to know more about the Christian faith to embrace more traditional and long established denominations. Still, I feel it is wrong for me to say anything detrimental about a church I really know nothing about.

p.s. There are two websites. The first is for Life Church. The second is for the Upper Room Daily Devotionals. No matter what you decide, it might be uplifting to visit the devotional website even when you are on your mission when and if you can.

Ron, Oklahoma City...With all due respect, your words continue to “haunt” me. Ron, on the other website when you first took issue with me, you said that you are an atheist. Then a few sentences later, you began your sentence, thus: “Thank God (not a pun),…..”

And, so, this additional note to you from me. ***************** Ron, my conscious will not allow me to ignore your situation or maybe it is God who won’t allow me to do that. In fact, I AM POSITIVE THAT HE HAS PUT THIS ON MY HEART. If you will remember, you acknowledged Him as soon as you denied Him. Using God’s name in vain is blasphemy. But you did not do that. You were thanking Him whether you intended to or not. That is significant. Why did you do that? Do you even know? Curse me if you must, but here’s the thing: You have declared that you are an atheist. You are going to Iraq in a little more than a month, even though you feel your mission is “stupid.” It would be very remiss and even unkind not to talk with you about God before you leave. Others are reading this and if the shoe fits, they are certainly most welcome to wear it. I hope that they will, but I am writing specifically to you for I am called to do that. No matter who says what about me for my writing these words to you, it does not matter. What matters is that you are to be encouraged to search for God. Ron, there have been a few times in my life when I have tried to imagine how I would relate to life if I did not believe in a Supreme Being. I admit I cannot figure that out. I can put myself in countless situations and come up with some empathetic identification of what it might be like… and to really “feel”and emotionally "involve" (so to speak) myself in said situtation . By that I don't mean I go around pretending I am someone else, I mean I try to consider how other people may feel...I can't walk their path, but I can try to understand it. Anyway, I have come to realize, figuring out how to relate to the world around me without God is impossible for me to do. For you, I guess it is the opposite. Yet, there is one major difference. I cannot get “rid” of God…but you can “find” Him. I want to assure you that I can attest….personally attest that miracles do happen. There is not much time before you travel to “Harm’s Way.” Before you go, please consider thinking some about God …it can’t hurt you. However, it could make all the difference to you now and forever. You see, I truly believe that we have been “hard-wired” by our Creator … that there is something within all of us that is void without Him filling it up. Even when we don't realize it, there is a yearning for something more. What is the purpose of life, etc.? Those kinds of questions..do you ever have them? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know. But I do know...Ron, whether you like it or not...you affirmed God . . You went further, you thanked Him. As you embark on this mission, you will need strength and protection and courage. You will need God. Curse me, if you must…Make fun of me! But think about what you have said and then think about what I am saying. Think about it, Ron. I urge you to visit a church or with a friend who believes.Maybe you have no one who does...then visit a pastor...one on one! Perhaps you have a chaplain in your unit. Any should be willing, but I don't feel it is right for me to advise you in regard to denomination...Ask God.., yeah, really! I am serious1 Then follow your heart. It cannot hurt you. You were here checking out churches establishing a presence. I regret my response on this dicussion board. Who am I to tell anyone where they can or cannot find God! I AM NO ONE! NO ONE SHOULD STAND BETWEEN YOU AND GOD ...and I say that to everyone. I cannot limit God! If God wants to find you in LIFECHURCH and you are willing to seek Him there...so be it! HERE is the Life Church website: http://www.lifechurch.tv/

http://www.upperroom.org/devotional/
Prayers be with you whether you want them or not.

Darn ... Now I have to create that "Second GET A LIFE" site for us atheists. Work , work, work.

You got that right! I've been drifting around in troubled waters. Wherever you have been, it surely was better than here! :)

haha....C, Paoli....I leave you alone for a few days and look at what you get yourself into?

"Monty"... and I forgot to leave a smile! You have a great day, too! :)

Hm. I made myself unclear. My point is, you don't think of the nickel as evil. But just because you think that doesn't make it no longer evil! Have a great day--- Monty.

Nope.. not that..there are definite truths! However, words can have numerous meanings and do.

Montgomery..ACTUALLY..we also have different connotations of the word nickel! I don't think of it as being evil at all!

Montgomery, it all depends. It depends on one's connotation of the word....in this instance, virtual. Not the word nickel. It appears that we may have different connotations of the word hypocrisy, as well.

But isn't everything we do on this message board virtual? The hypocrisy is staggering! Show me one time in the New Testament anyone used a nickel.

kathleen,jones..You are so right!

well,my prayer mat is certainly going to get some use......... I believe this IS the time to pray..........so many different views,arguements,issues, well..........only ONE can make it clear to each and everyone of us..in HIS time and manner ..........

C./Paoli & John/Stigler-agreed and I will raise you one with I see more than one "snake in the grass" here....

In reference to the point about Christianity's impact on humanity, it was intended to illustrate that the message has spread and endured from that tiny beginning transending continents, time and space and generations... .. and all that has been so miraculously and significantly accomplished was done without technology. It was He who established the church.

to correct typo: "In any case...I must add: May God's will be done!"
Also to clarify my meaning here is a repost of a sentence with correction: .."I question if the essence of the virtual church can convey to those who do not know Christ, with integrity, His essence."

Susana,Yukon...you offered noteworthy comments with some validity. They stimulate thought. Some more of mine: While it is true that there may be nothing wrong with thinking outside the box (at times it might even be quite desirable and the catalyst for great things!), it depends on the nature of the box, its content, etc. It is a given that people are the cause of conflict. It is our imperfection the gives us our great need for Christ. Undeniably, no matter what else some might claim, Jesus changed the world. Those who denounce Him and still crucify Him surely must fail to realize that it was His "out of the box" life and great sacrifice which left an indelible and very positive mark on e civilization...on the human race. Perhaps too many people seldom stop to realize what an impact that really has been. Of course, we are not anonymous to Christ. It is always between the person and the Lord. However, that reference might be more intended as a reference to those who do not know, acknowledge or respect Him. Since no one else in the virtual church knows them, they don't feel accountable for their behaviors. Those behavior might even be deviant in that situation, because of their anonymity. I question if the essence of the virtual church can convey His essence to those who do not know Christ with integrity. I question whether or not the message will be corrupted. There are those who may be seeking , but what they find may not be "authentic." It might seem more like "recreational pasttime or play" to them. John/Stigler mentions hypocrisy. Well, let me say this. If I was a hypocrite and did not fervently believe in the truth of God's Word, I would not bother to speak this way. Nor would I care. I admit... I don't know the answer when it comes to this kind of outreach...still, I see many reasons not to embrace it. There is anoher discussion question which talks of our health. We have become a "people" with lazy habits which do not foster good health and well being. We want instant gratification ...a band-aid, quick fix approach to life. We tend to want others to be responsible rather than assuming responsibility for our own actions. This is no different in that it is a lazy approach to an area of well being. Spiritual good health in as vital to the human body as anything else. There are many ways to worship..with a body of believers is best. But...hey, you can communicate with God anywhere. However, to feel the need to enter this kind of situation is a lazy approach to one's spiritual well being. I dont' think churches should encourage that. Anyone who wants reinforcement or knowledge can find a wealth of credible websites online already. Even the entire Bible...there are an abundant supply of wholesome online resources if a person wants to use technology to enhance their spiritual life. In any cae...I must add: May God's will be done!

You all post some very interesting comments. However, it is the people, NOT the church that pose the conflicts. Christ advises us to use discernment in his word. There is nothing wrong with: "Thinking outside the box" if you can win someone to Christ.. Also, we are never anonymous to Christ, no one else really matters...

I guess Secondlife being all virtual means all decisions are virtual. Since salvation is virtual it is the ultimate in hypocrisy. It does parallel some aspects of today's real church services where most of what goes on is nothing less than smoke and mirrors. Take two of my closest friends in the OKC metro area. One is a piano teacher at a local university who has had to change churches three times in the past two years. Reason? - Music tracks. Her pianist services have been terminated in lieu of automated powerpoint-driven music tracks. I fear what will happen to her if the university terminates the keyboard programs and replaces it with "how to program a powerpoint driven music track" program. The other older couple are organist/pianists. The husband plays organ and the wife plays piano. They have been forced to move membership for the exact same reason. Time will tell when they run out of places to play and wind up at Secondlife.......

It is the church's job to make disciples of Jesus Christ. To assist in that mission, a church should provide a place to gather and help its members be equipped to know and serve Christ. It needs to be service minded and have connection in the community. It needs to instill deeper spirituality, a keen sense of sacrificial social justice and an evangelistic mindset in its members. It should help members in understanding how people without a Christ-centered life may be hurting and are missing the fullness of life that God intends. I don't think that the virtual church can deliver. I think that that medium opens the door for pain and suffering instead and a pandora's box of things which might even defy the stretch of our own imaginations.

Nathan,Edmond..You offered so many good points obviously based on scripture. I understand now why you were so concerned in an earlier discussion when you warned others about Life Church. It appears that you had much reason to feel alarm. You and I do not share the same denomination, but we do share the same faith. We worship the same God. We read the same Bible. We are saved by the same Lord. I am reminded of Ephesians 6:10-18. We must study God's Word. We can find answers and discernment there. Dave, pocatello, makes a very important point. I agree with Dave! I add some additional thoughts. The concept of the virtual church is flawed. It taints the message by reducing it to something akin to a game on Playstation....mere entertainment. Dave points out a real truth. This opens the door for real evil. Plus, I think, mockery ...blasphemy. It doesn't seem to promote genuine worship. In the "playing" of a game of virtual church, the player would actually be involved in a "game"..nothing more. I doubt that the integrity and authenticity of God's Word can be truly heard or felt in the virtual church. Churches should not participate or promote things that might put stumbling blocks or temptations between God and His children. This venture is very likely to do harm rather than good. Does anyone really believe that God's spirit will be present in the virtual church? I don't.

I am not sure that a Virtual church will do anything but bring the negative aspects of many people out. For instance, the article says that a female member walked into the church naked and had to be asked to leave. Would she have done that in real life? Not likely. The internet allows us to be anonymous and that brings out the worst in too many people. Look at the blogs and replies to news articles. Hate speech everywhere. People involved in this will likely fantasize in the netherworld, and that will do nothing to help the cause of God.

C, Paoli: That sounds like moral relativism to me. :)

Lol..Nathan I agree with you! {shocking isnt it} hehe Seriously though this is quite scary, im enjoying reading all these posts.

John, i do not go to henderson hills and i'm not even baptist. i do agree that henderson hills along with many others seem to take on a country club atmosphere and that is sad. i think you might need to say a little more in reference to your "enough said" comment because if you read you can clearly see that i'm not baptist and i definately do not agree with their beliefs or the way they worship. i'd respond with "enough said", but i'm sure i'll get prodded into responding to a future comment. have a good evening.

Nathan, by chance do you go to Henderson Hills Baptist Country Club? Enough said.

LaTasha, what is the name of this church so that people won't go back there with this kind of behavior.

LaTasha, if I understood you correctly, you were not referring to Life church when you spoke of your sister (her preacher might do well to read James about "not being a respecter of persons"). And yet, it could have been, if Life church is straying from the scriptural pattern of worship as the place where your sister goes seems to be doing. There are so many elements of worship that would be missing online - how would you "sing to one another", how do you remember the Lord's death in communion, for example? But, for now, encourage your sister to find the body where she will be welcomed unconditionally. She, for one, needs the human touch that cannot be found online.

Ah-Ha! So now we know Nathan's last name --- Campbell.

You are exactly right. But we have to be careful to who listen to because sometimes we get weak and really down and run to the church and get mistreated. I thinking that is what happened to her. She lost he first two kids and needed some healing and went to that church and I think he is abusing them because they are hungry for the word. He think he can say anything and do anything they will follow. Sad to say that is what is happening

LaTasha, that is not the "preachers" place to do that. Don't give up your faith just because of a mnan who is probably a "wolf in sheeps clothing" anyway. life church is always "outside of the box" which makes most of their practices "unscriptural". where in the new testament did Christ instruct us to live "outside the box". "the path to heaven is narrow". why do we need the Bible if we aren't going to follow His instructions for how we are supposed to worship Him? life church has a rock band. where in the new testament is there mention of an instrument whatsoever? they have saturday evening services, yet Christ instructs us to meet on the FIRST day of the week. life chruch has women leading the services yet you will find NO TIME where a woman ever even got up to sing or say a prayer in the new testament. several "churches" and especially the community churches are teaching that its acceptable to worship in a way that you the person is comfortable with and that is not what the Bible teaches. worship service should not be a show to entertain the masses, it should be done in reverence to the one who died for OUR sins. do you remember when Jesus ran the money changers out of the temple because what they were doing was inappropriate for that type of environment? what would he think about coffee bars and live animals in services? people treating it more as a social club rather than a place of worship. i personally think you can get a good message from the internet, just like you can get an education online now, but what sacarfice have you made for the one who created you? doesn't he deserve a little more of your time?

I have come to realize recently that there is a group of dear Christian women with whom I can be myself, bear my burdens,cry my heart out,be joyful, and even be the one to encourage someone else. It is a weekly Bible study group, not meant to take the place of worship with the entire body of Christ. But,it has challenged me to be a Christian in the midst of everyday life. I actually crave this interaction with my sisters, and it also has made me value the times of worship that are available to me at other times of the week. I can't imagine how some get by without this physical contact as often as possible. I do believe that God established Jesus's church (body) for just such a reason as this, to satisfy our hunger for congregational worship to Him.

My sister goes to this church and I am scared really scared for her. Things like that should not go on in the church.

Yes this church is in oklahoma city. Can you believe it.

What would you do if you attended a church and two of your members go get out of church. The first one got kicked because the pastor told him to step up his appearance and he did not do so the pastor took his membership and told him he could not visit as well. The other member got kicked for being late to church and the pastor said her actions shows that she does not want be a christian. I think pastor like this stir good people away from church. You should be able to come as your and feel welcome.

Wow, what a diverse group of ideas. I keep going back to the fact the Jesus was known to "hang out" with less than desirable people. I think outreach is VERY important, and sometimes you have to go where the people are. I've not visited this "Second Life" site, so I have no opinion about it. Therefore, I'm not going to criticize Life Church for using it as an outreach, discipling tool. Hopefully, they are encouraging the people there to attend a worship service at "The Church of their Choice." I am a regular church attendee, not at Life Church. I don't think some of the judgemental statements I've read here display very Christian attitudes.

Pragmatism is very popular in our time. We justify the way we do things by the end result we achieve. But when it comes to God's work, we will give account to Him not only for WHAT we did, but also HOW we did it. As I said in a previous posting, there is nothing wrong with having a Christian influence there, but a church's endorsement of Second Life could be enough to have the opposite effect on some. There could be some that get caught up in it that would not have if the church had simply discouraged it.

everyone wants you to go to church so they can collect the cha-ching $$. So they can use the cash for political gain. So what is it to everyone
if people chooooose to do this. Judge not you self rightious P wholes.

Not to say that the danger of internet interactions isn't real, but how do you know when you meet someone in PERSON that they aren't dangerous? You don't. And how odd is it that the atheist of the group is the one saying let the church go on with this and the churchgoers are protesting it? What harm does it do to reach out to different cultures? Ask Bill Clinton, who was elected not once but twice, due in no small part to his appearances on MTV and appeal to the younger generation. What's bad about a church doing something similar?

larry from edmond again, an edit to my comment. the last line should read,what good is lettung your light shineonly in a well lighted room?

I read the comments below and see that some of them are half correct and some arent.The point is Jesus said to go into all the world and make diciples (followers of Christ )you cant do that setting on your good intentions. The "church " is the body of Christ,not a building,granted " forsake not yourselves gathering together of like minded people "this is for fellowship,worship,and learning.Do you put your everyday clothes on over the righteousness you have been made by the blood of Jesus ?What happened to let your light shine? what good is letting your light shine only in a well room? Larry from edmond

I meant to write, "I don't think that anyone is saying that online relationships CANNOT be real"
Sorry!

I'm not so sure that we can judge the motives of Life Church. I believe they are genuinely interested in helping people - not in making money. But they are also so interested in always being on the "cutting edge" of everything, I don't think they ever stop to think if they should. Opening a campus on SL is an official endorsement of it by their church. The fact that there is a wicked culture on SL doesn't mean that a church should be there to counter it. I'm not saying they won't help people, but the logic is like saying that church members should go into clubs and adult stores "to be a witness."

Paula, I don't think that anyone is saying that online relationships can be real. That is part of what makes SL so dangerous. Some lonely gal could become very attached to someone she assumes is like the character on the screen, but is really some kind of predator. I believe that the deceit involved is enough that churches should discourage their members from being involved - not encouraging it.

I've been helped by my "internet" friends sometimes even more than local friends. Words of encouragement and support are words of encouragement and support. Reading them on a computer doesn't nullify them. I've found friends and allies in many online communities that extended beyond email and chat sessions. My best friend, who I met online, lives 1500 miles away. I've seen her in person on two different occasions in the 9+ years we have known each other. We talk in email nearly every day and on the phone a few times a month. The fact that I met her online in no way makes that friendship any less special than friends you have met in church. Don't invalidate an experience because it's never happened to you.

To me being part of a church is about being part of a community. You help others and they help you. I just don't understand how you can do that on the computer screen. To me being in a church and giving my full attention to what is going on and being in the presence of God is all part of being a Christian. I think it's another ploy for Life Church to get more money. They are using up so many resources on this web based church that they could be using to help the community.

God will also find out if you've been using the devil's coin. You will be measured with the same yardstick with which you measure others.

The Bible - God's opinion on all this - says in Hebrews that we are not to forsake "the assembling of yourselves together." In the context of that it means in a church gathering. It doesn't have to be in a specific building, but it does have to be in a localized place with a group of believers. I'm sure it would be fine for churches to have a presence on second life, maybe sharing their faith on an individual level, but people should never be allowed to feel that they can substitute time on the computer for time with God's church. The problem is that many churches are not doing much more than letting people get together for a social gathering. That can be done online just as easily as in person. But if a church is committed to preaching the Word of God, as they are commanded, preaching cannot be done properly through a computer screen.

Second Life is full of porn, I think it's great that there is a spiritual presence there too. Secondly, the presence of a church there is not meant to substitute for the coming together as a body.... BUT what about the folks that a) can't get to church for whatever reason, health, sick kids, no vehicle, work on Sunday a.m.....etc.
And, I don't think it says anywhere in the Bible that you are supposed to give AT LEAST an hour a week to worship God.....you can do it every day all day, any day.
And I find it weird that some people are so critical of something they know nothing about or have ever experienced. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks Austin/OKC. For letting me know what this was about.

I would hardly think that the audience they are targeting for this move are devout Christian followers. They are targeting the people who are LESS likely to attend a Church service.. to show them an alternate way of life.. this is a great move for them to spread the word to those who are not Christ followers or are confused about their religious affiliation (if any). Its a "foot in the door".

So why spend time posting to a message board for others to hear your opinion if it's not real time? Does that mean your opinion is invalid? If your way is not the only way, then why condescend towards people who do it differently? I am a Humanist, but I certainly see no reason to condem someone solely for their theistic choices.

Nathan, for once I have to say I actually agree with you. Being a Christian is not an easy task. It takes commitment and time on your part. I just think going to church on Sunday morning is the first step. I don't believe my way is the only way but I do believe you need to give more time to God, then getting up and logging on to the internet is not real time.

I didn't know anything about this until I read some of the posts. I have been taught that salvation comes not from what you do but how sincerely you believe. Only God knows that. Whatever strengthens their faith is different for each individual. However kindness and compassion can be spread is fine with me. Just because something is new does not make it invalid. Everything was new at one time or another.

Others may view it as respectful, and I do agree that minus the hateful insults, Nathan is much easier to take. But if you will, please allow me to respectfully point out that in essence, what's being said is that if you don't worship a certain specific way, you're doing it wrong, and you're not going to heaven anyway. I can say without a doubt that this attitude among members of certain churches I attended while attempting to find a deity-centered spirituality was the exact thing that drove me away from it. They gave me instructions and told me that I would feel all these wonderful things, but when I didn't and asked why, I was told I was doing it wrong. I don't think people realize that this type of attitude turns more people away than draws people in. If I ever decide to go back to a deity-centered spirituality, I would attend an affirming church like Church of the Open Arms. Any deity who dooms me to an eternity in hell for worshipping him the wrong way is not a deity I want to spend eternity with anyway.

Nathan, WOW! I am PROUD of you! This is the first post I have read from you in a while.. you did a great job of asserting your point respectfully. Great Job!

Second Life and other Virtual Worlds are changing the way humans communicate and share information online. Religion and church is basically the sharing of information and the metaverse is a perfect place to broaden any message. Of course given the vast majority of Second Life is far from religious, it is good to have a positive influence such as these churches and Quantum Tribe Laboratories which operates in Second Life providing 100% Positive Quantum Energy to all free of charge. QTLabs Inc.

i think that this is just as silly as some of the other ways or gimmicks people use to get people in their doors. they don't have truth or the Word on their side so they go to the gimmicks: a while back the Oklahoman had an article on pet worship... bring your pets to church it stated, or what about rock bands? some of these "singing groups" are not even spiritual when they perform. i've even heard of a site called "christiangays" or something along those lines... oxymoron if i've ever heard one. being a christian is difficult and takes effort on the part of the individual. i believe God will figure out if you went to "online church" because you were up all night drinking and you wanted to stay home in your robe, or maybe you don't want to miss the first part of the big game. God knows your heart and he knows the motives for your actions. Dianna, God does expect you to attend services... he states it in the Bible...to worship when the doors are open. God does love you regardless, but it still takes action on your part and it takes you obeying his commandments. it also says beware of false teachers... they are like wolves in sheeps clothing. it also states that not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. just some thoughts.

I don't participate in second life, but if I did, I would be as free to not go to church there as I am in the real world. Big deal if someone else wants to go.

Great, all I need is a virtual Jehovah's Witness interrupting my online game play.

Evil is all over the Internet so perhaps it's time for good to take it back.

Jennifer from Edmond- I disagree with you wholeheartedly. I do not believe that God expects you to punch a time clock. I dlos do not believe that you have to even go to church in order to be a good person and for God to love you. You also did not specify your time requirements- one hour a day, a week, a month, a year??? God loves me regardless of anytime spent in a man-made building full of uppity society folks who use church as a fashion show.

Read the article.. its actually kind of interesting. I am not a second life participant..but the world is changing- I think its great that they are reaching out in a different way.

I think ot's a little silly. Let's take anything people actually leave their homes for and put it online in a virtual-reality world. On the other hand, someone may find peace in the virtual world that the can't find in "real life".

I don't agree with it. People need to give God at least 1 hour of their time in church not just on the internet in an actualy church. I think it's actually silly because who is going to take a church on the internet seriously.

The time is qucikly coming when anti-christs will start forcing the closing of a good many real churches so this may be the only way people can attend church.

What does this post mean?????? A church tyring to rebuild itself? Start over?

I'm torn. First of all, I see it as extremely goofy. Second of all, any church scared of trying and failing at something that seems extremely goofy is in big trouble.