What fans are saying
Comments
379
Published: July 2, 2008
Here are what Sonics fans were saying earlier today when news of a settlement negotiation first broke on NewsOK.com.
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Let me put this in business perspective: If I treated my customer base the way the Sonics & the NBA have treated their customer base, how many of my customers do you think would be apologizing to me? We fans are the customers, the NBA is the business. This business to expects it’s customers to pay more because the business just screwed over the fans? Is this how business works? Really?
It is time for cities across this nation to stop the nonsense. The reason NBA owners extort cities is because the cities have been dumb enough to let them do it. Speaking as a conservative here ..... Conservatives demand no government intervention in their businesses, or as little governmental intervention as possible. But that goes both ways. If a business is to be run without governmental intervention, you cannot really demand the government then comes back and rescues the business when the business goes bad. That makes absolutely no sense and is contrary to the Conservative way of doing things and capitalism in general.
Businesses need to pay for their own overhead. If a business cannot flourish while doing that, then it is up to the business, not the customers, to fix their own business plan. Nor is it the responsibility of the government to step in and pour more funds into the venture. That type of thinking is exactly what drives conservatives up the wall about liberals. Conservatives demand that budgets be hit by finding new ways to get competitive, including cutting parts of a business that are the least profitable. Liberals just want to add taxes while the parts of the venture that are not profitable are still funded. So right there on the surface, I don't know how any conservative could ever support subsidizing a fledging business unless that business proves absolutely that their presence in the community leads directly to increased tax revenues. And yet with $500 million spent on new stadiums every 20 years or less ...... seems like long odds that professional sports lives up to the claim. Especially with the Sonics who just got a sparkling new stadium a decade ago.
The NBA is a business. The fan base are the customers. Let's not forget that. Customers who have been scammed by a business do not go rushing out to build a new building for a business that just screwed them over. If I defaulted on my home loan, or opted out on my lease, next time getting a home loan or lease will be considerably more difficult. And deservedly so. Banks are not foolish enough to lend new funds to businesses who just defaulted. Why should the fans and taxpayers of this city do that? If the NBA had lived up to the terms of their lease and the city had gotten what they expected when the lease was signed, then that's one thing. But in this case we have a league who apparently feels it's just fine to break leases once that money has been spent, for their product. And the league itself admits that the business plan is not working. Can they prove to the cities that tax revenues are greater than expenses? Thus far the NBA hasn’t done that, and certainly not when they refuse to live up to the leases they sign with landlords.
So sorry Seattle Sonic fans, but speaking in totally business terms here, businesses that break leases and default on loans do not deserve more expensive loans and leases the next time. So the NBA has a credit worthiness problem here, and it gets down to the "fool me once" issue. The NBA just demonstrated their league and owners are not trustworthy. And Seattle is certainly not the first city to be stung by these guys. So don't ask us for a new building next time NBA. Because we can't trust you. You just proved that. You want a new team in Seattle, fine, you build the building this time and you'd better spend a ton of effort wooing back the very customer base you just wronged. Because that's how businesses do things and you my friends, are just another business, albeit one with very bad credit at this point.
And you can argue that Bennett DID make the numbers right in Seattle with the settlement, but that was only after being sued into submission. And it does not take into account the emotional damage done to the customer base, which is every bit as important to fans as the numbers. So Bennett fails on multiple front here, and it simply amazes some of us that other cities are willing to do this deal given the track record of owners in professional sports leagues. Especially, now, Mr Clay Bennett.
Clay Bennett is a villan in more sports than just basketball, and no doubt David Stern is hearing an earful from other commissioners whose products Stern & Bennett just hurt. If there was a lawsuit to be had, it would be the other three major sports leagues suing the NBA for being business morons that have hurt their leagues.
First of, as Larry from OKC pointed out, I-91 was not an absolute ban and pretty much irrelevant.
Also, Clay's proposal called for the most expensive arena in the nation. Comparing it to the Maloof's $600 million proposal that got shot down is again irrelevant. I never said Clay's proposal was for the most expensive arena ever proposed. Just if it would have passed, it would have been the most expensive NBA arena. Doesn't seem that hard to understand.
Additionally, Clay's proposal to the legislature was for an arena in which the Sonics contributed nothing and would not pay for any cost overruns. Your statement that "BENNETT WAS NEVER GIVEN A CHANCE TO COMMIT HOW MUCH HE WOULD PUT UP before the Washington legislature told him his proposal was "dead in the water"" is completely false (though I do like the use of the Caps Lock button). You do not seem to understand how legislature works. The legislature will never pass a proposal and then decide how it should be funded. The proposal included a funding plan. It was "dead in the water" because none of that funding was from the Sonics. The legislature cannot pass a proposal and then go "Ok, now how much would you like to put in Clay?"
As for the Key Arena renovation, it was a $95.5 million total renovation of which the City paid $74.5 million. I did think the city contributed more.
Also I must differ on your analysis of the "fair terms" that you think Clay would have accepted. Clay wanted to move the team to OKC and the only way he would leave the team in Seattle is if the city could guarantee him a consistent stream of profit. You even describe it as a classic "win/win" situation for Clay. Only problem is that the taxpayers lose because they have to subsidize Clay's business if he stays. I don't know any business that works like this and I do not think it was possible to come to a fair agreement under these circumstances. While I definitely think NBA owners have a right to make money and lots of it, I don't think it is "fair" for the taxpayers to have to guarantee a billionaire's profit to prevent a move.
Honestly, I share the same feeling of you being "sick and tired of Seattleites pointing fingers at everything", but I am also sick of OKC fans insisting on blaming Seattlites for not going along with sponsoring Clay's "win/win situation."
And you talk about the $50 million that the Orlando owners agreed to put up but in your arrogance or ignorance, you fail to point out that BENNETT WAS NEVER GIVEN A CHANCE TO COMMIT HOW MUCH HE WOULD PUT UP before the Washington legislature told him his proposal was "dead in the water". Again, shouldn't you point out the overriding failure of your elected officials to make a counteroffer? We'll never know what Bennett would have done, because he was never given the chance!
And you again overlook the fact that there is something to be said for the FACT that the Mariners were about to leave Seattle. The Seahawks were about to leave Seattle. The Sonics threatened to leave Seattle for at least four years before they actually did. There is a common denominator here: the Washington legislature and the people of Seattle (i.e. "the man in the mirror").
I mean GRIFFIN. You know, the guy who was the mouthpiece for the "Poisoned Well" group of backstabbers who tried to steal the team from Bennett. I am not confusing him with anyone. You call the group of Slade Gorton and Wally Walker's covert operatives the Ballmer Group. And the city only spent $75 million on the 1993 renovation of the circa 1962 Seattle Center Coliseum, not $100 million. And that renovation did nothing to address the major problem with that facility; the fact that it is TOO SMALL to be a functional NBA arena in this day and age. When I said "Griffin", I meant GRIFFIN. But how SCHULTZ could ask for a renovation "seven" years (actually nine, but who's counting?) after the on-the-cheap renovation to the circa 1962 Seattle Center Coliseum was done was because the arena was (is) a MONEY PIT given current NBA economics.
Do I really think Clay Bennett would have stayed in Seattle under "fair terms"? ABSOLUTELY. Why wouldn't they? Bennett and his partners were in a classic win/win situation when they bought the teams. They could either get an arena deal done and make a ton of money operating the teams in Seattle (or by selling the teams in a "sweet flip") AND expand their other businesses to a new market to boot; or move their franchise to their hometown and make a ton of money.
I appreciate your comments about your love of Oklahoma. I mean no disrespect to you. I am just VERY sick and tired of Seattleites pointing fingers at everything except where they need to be pointed - at themselves and their elected leaders.
Our politicians were skeptical of Clay's efforts from the beginning, and made working with him almost impossible. He demanded a half billion dollar building be built for him, the most expensive basketball arena in the USA, but was unwilling to contribute to the cause. Very noble of him; would have gone a long way to show his sincere commitment to the region if he had.
Seattle is very progressive, but things don't get done overnight. It took some time but we did build a brand new baseball stadium, one of the finest, at a very high price tag - but it was a joint public & private partnership. Seattle constructed a tremendous football stadium, state of the art, but yet it too was a private / public subsidized venture. When the Sonics wanted to completely remodel / rebuild Key Arena 12 years ago it got done and was also a private - public partnership. These buildings were all built with public and private monies - where as Clay Bennett would not offer any contribution to the cause to get the ball rolling.
Seattle will get a new basketball arena with Ballmer's future ownership group coming forward and offering to pay half the cost of the building, Bennett never offered to pay a dime because he never wanted to keep the team in Seattle as the emails so aptly point out. The Oklahoma hero whose lies and deceiving acts must make you all very proud.
Lets put it this way, in straight talk - which might be foreign to Oklahoman's alike, Seattle is still paying off the new Qwest Stadium, Safeco Field, and the newly remodeled Key Arena (144 months old); it would be like a home owner having not one, but three mortgages at the same time, and then be asked to tear down one of those homes and rebuild it again, at an even far greater cost; and then given a small window of time to accomplish this feat. We have a proven record of getting projects like this done – but his timetable was unrealistic – and his motives transparent and insincere. Hard to work with someone when you don’t believe a word out of his mouth. The city of Seattle was not going to be held at ransom by a group of ‘shysters’, which is exactly what they were. Yes Oklahoma you can be very proud to call Clay Bennett one of your own.
David Stern spoke highly of Key Arena upon his first visit in 1995, but then deemed it unsuitable for his product less than 10 years later. 10 years is all an arena gets these days. How long will the Ford Center be good in the eyes of Stern & Bennett.
Now Key Arena is not the Taj Majal but it is no dump; but unless you are a wealthy luxury box owner it is a fabulous place to watch basketball, intimate with great sight lines. It is a terrific basketball arena - but it is NOT a large shopping mall with 100 high priced luxury suites, & 75 restaurants, that is demanded these days. It’s a basketball arena - home of the Seattle Sonics for a better part of 41 years.
Now a days we have congressional inquiries and trials into whether a player uses steroids or not; and then there are ongoing trials into the ensuing perjury that occurred from those events. Should Clay Bennett not be held to the same standards? The senate inquired on behalf of the people, against players cheating; should they not do the same when a owner steals a 41 year old franchise from a community and then perjures himself repeatedly on the stand. Yes this is a man Oklahoma can be proud of.
The community of Seattle has 'always' supported this team. Clay Bennett’s idea of a “Good Faith Effort” was to strip it of all its marquee players, and trade away any player that could make them competitive - Seattle fans still showed up in the stands. Would Oklahoma show up at Oklahoma football games and support a man who was trying to take that football program to - say Montana? Well -Seattle did. Even when Clay Bennett managed to put the worst product Seattle has ever seen in its ‘41-year history’ - they did not play in front of 7,000 fans. Though he tried in vain, he never could completely disengage the Seattle Sonic fan base; while getting rid of all fan favorites, even coaches with long ties to Seattle basketball and the community - just the opposite thing you would do if you were trying to build fan support for a new arena.
Seattle will get another franchise - but we won't rip one out of somebody else's community. We have had polls in Seattle - and overwhelmingly people voted up here that we would not want to be granted a team if it meant stealing one, and all its history from another city. I guess you can say that is where people from Oklahoma and Seattle differ - its called morals; look it up in the dictionary if you don't understand what it truly means.
Though you successfully stole our team - you cannot buy a team's history - it is Not something you purchase - it is something you live; something that is woven into the community, into the people that shared the fond memories - not something you buy. Make your own history and then rightfully celebrate it. Don't make mock NBA Championship trophies and banners that have absolutely no meaning to you. Remember a NBA team does not make you a big city, any more than Los Angeles losing the Rams made them a small city. Oklahoma will still be Oklahoma – with just another entertainment value available.
I was in Oklahoma for the first time a week ago, and met many nice people when I was there; and came away with the feeling they were happy to get a team but they did not agree with how they were getting one. From what I saw of the area - I have no idea how Oklahoma plans on supporting an NBA team - past the 3-5 year novelty phase, at which point your hero will be asking for a new arena to be able to compete - even though Ford Center looked adequate.
Most of you from Oklahoma know an injustice was done - and for you to stand for this injustice and not voice your opinion - makes you no better then Clay Bennett. I have read that Clay is regarded as a hero now, while most of the United States reserve that term for the likes of our ‘honorable’ fighting troops, policemen and the like. For any of you to consider him a hero for what he has done - only shows your lack of integrity & values - for he has painted your state, your region with a brush of dishonesty, and unscrupulous behavior that will far outlive your short NBA lives.
Tom
I am writing this letter to response of the many opinions written about Oklahoma. Oklahoman are a proud group of people. Its made up of many different races and cultures. The people here are educated, have jobs and are proud of their heritage.
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I doubt any payoff was made to the city leaders to trick the people of Oklahoma City. If you want to question tactics of a city...question the tactics of Seattle city leaders to bleed the team owners dry. Prime example of a city wanting to keep their team. The opinion in this state is that Seattle didn't want their team till it was leaving. And your state government not wanting to fund a new stadium. That speaks volumes.
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You brought up the subject of the Native Americans. I Google d the many different tribes in the state of Washington...Guess what? Same thing happened up there. Tribes ceding their land to the US Government.
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My understanding of the transaction of the sales of the Sonics to Mr. Bennett was a legal sale. He bought the team and now its HIS right as owner to do anything he can to make them profitable. OKC appears to be a hot market for NBA basketball. OKC is hot and Seattle is not.That happens all the time with businesses.
My suggestion is to display your right to vote. Vote the people out whom did not want to support your team. Your city government, state government. Boycott Starbucks. He is the one who sold the team. He is all about expansion that he overdid it and now is closing 600 stores across the nation. Blame the economy or blame greed. Hundreds are losing jobs to the closings.
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With all that being said...one last thought. Call Microsoft and asked for help using Spellchecker. They will be glad to help you.
As for Seattle's 41 year history of professional sports, I really don't think you can criticize it. We have never lost a team before except for the Pilots who were here for one season (1969-70) almost 40 years ago. And are you seriously going to bring up the Pilots? They were here for one season 40 years ago and Bud Selig did the same thing as Clay Bennett (bought them and moved them to his hometown despite strong opposition). Additionally, we supported the Sonics since they were an expansion team. Interesting the only West Coast NBA team that was still in its original location. Another interesting fact most don't know outside of Seattle, the Sonics definitely had the most loyal fanbase here and out of all the Seattle teams are the one team who have never been close to moving and have consistently drawn fans. As stated before, I honestly think OKC will be a good home for pro sports, but really how can you call out Seattle's history as a pro sports city with 3 teams for the last 35 years when OKC has never had a pro sports team before? Also, "Griffin" (I assume you mean Howard Schultz) was asking for a new arena when he wasn't even half way through his previous lease. How do you ask for a new arena 7 years after the city has spent $100 million renovating an arena to the specification of the then owner Barry Ackerley.
Also, what "local constitutional restriction" are you talking about? I really may be mistaken, but I believe you are referring to the vote to not let the Sonics out of their lease.
Regardless of all that, do you really think Clay Bennett would have let the team stay in Seattle under fair terms? His only offer was you build me a $500 million arena and I pay nothing. You have seen the emails right?
And the fact is that Seattle only sold 17 of its 35 luxury suites. That's where the big money comes from to support NBA teams.
The 14 year old (20 years old by the time a new arena could be built) remodel of Key Arena was done on the small and cheap, and now it is old and outdated. If it was 100% full, it would still be a financial disaster given the terms of that lease.
For a good part of the "41 year tradition" of pro sports in Seattle, the franchises have been trying to get out of there (Pilots, Sonics, Seahawks, Mariners). Doesn't that strike you the least bit strange? Could it be that the problem is not Clay Bennett, but rather the man in the mirror?
1. Seattle fans did definitely support the Sonics. The year before Clay got here we had attendance percentage of 95.3% which was 8th in the league. Admittedly we had a smaller capacity than most teams, but we had plenty of sellouts and the fans were buying the seats that were available. Even the first year of Clay's ownership, attendance was still at 94% despite having a rough season. So please, stop saying the fans did not support the Sonics!
2. Seattle does not neglect the Sonics at the expense of the Mariners and Seahawks. Seattle remodeled Key Arena in the 90's and the Sonics still had 4 years left on their lease when Clay got the team. While it is arguable that we should have already had a lease renewal done prior to Clay obtaining the team, I think this is offbase. We still had 4 years left on our current lease in which we could have negotiated and definitely would have negotiated. The longer the Sonics waited it out, the more leverage they would have in any future negotiations. However, once Clay got the team there was no chance of coming to any sort of reasonable agreement. Clay demanded the most expensive basketball arena in the nation and refused to contribute 1 cent. The estimated price of moving the time to OKC is $170 million. If he would have put 60% of that cost ($100 M) towards a new arena in Seattle, the city/state would have surely paid for the rest of the arena and Clay would have saved $70 million and had a brand new arena in the 12th biggest market. Clay's moves were motivated by his heart and I respect that, but it made it impossible for Seattle to negotiate with him.
Additionally, Clay would not even sell the team to Steve Balmer, who would have paid him more than he paid for the team plus interest. And if you really need anymore evidence that Clay wasn't attempting to keep the team in Seattle, you saw the emails. Once Clay got the team, it was over.
Additionally, I strongly believe that this could have happened to any team. Clay loves OKC and was willing to move a team there no matter what the cost. If Clay could have gotten someone to sell him the Celtics or the Lakers, I don't see how anyone could have been able to stop him from moving them to OKC. All he needed was a vote of the board of governors which did not seem to even be an issue. Honestly, once Clay got the team, what more could Seattle have done?
But I must reiterate, I love OKC/Tulsa and definitely think you deserve a team. With the NBA's refusal to grant expansion teams to deserving markets (such as OKC) there really is no option other than buying a team and relocating. I am just sad they decided to target a team that was so important to this area and had a 41 year tradition.
OKC NBA Team fans, hey, I like the way that rolls off the tongue, "OKC NBA TEAM" - yeah, forget OKC Sniveling Hypocrites, "OKC NBA TEAM" is the bomb! Will they get Clifford Ray to coach? I hope Alvan Adams is still in good shape - he and Wayman Tisdale could bring the team an NBA title in its first year.
UW alum here in OKC.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/080228&sportCat=nba
There's a reason Oklahoma was designated for Native Americans during our westward expansion and why Oklahoma got its first pro sports team in 2008. People who live there want to leave and people who don't avoid it like the plague.
You can call us all the names you want, but WE did not sell the team you love so much!
There's no need for us to attack each other.
I'm sure you all wish us to fail. We wish you nothing but good fortune in your future endevors for sports teams. Hopefully your business leaders and community leaders will see they need to find a way to get another team for you. We can spell, we can think and we are not ignorant hicks. God Bless you all and may he remove the anger from your hearts.
As for Oklahoma, it really doesn't matter. You finally have a team to call your own. Sure, I doubt this team will be any good in the next five years and certainly won't win you a championship in that time. But, with patience, you will eventually have a winner in your hands and with no competition for major league sports, I'm sure you will all manage to keep that patience.
For all the Oklahoma fans who didn't partake in the silly name-calling, I apologize for remarks made by people in my city. I'm sure you understand they were mostly made out of bitterness, not hate. As for you all being rednecks, whatever. Who cares. Good luck and have fun.
In the meantime, I'm a blazers fan, I already liked the team anyway.
however, OU football still perks my interest, even thru the bad weather times. the blazers (who aren't even a major league team) still attracts loads of people as do the redhawks. you cats don't understand the love affair we okies have with sports.
you know what's really gonna happen in five years.... OKC bringing home the NBA title!
BOOYAKASHA!
My question to you fans is how do you feel about Clay wanting to share Seattle's history? Do you all share your women too? What a sleezy idea of Clay! Do you get off hanging a banner that has noting to do with OKC and a replica trophy?
ExposeClayBennett@gmail.com
I hope you remember that when the smallest market in the NBA fails after 5 or so years.
Hope that will make all your parents proud!
Just wave goodbye to the vans. Might look into some
personal responsibility courses also. You sold, we bought. And you are angry with us? What a joke.
Better take care of your other pro sports before someone up there sells them.
Not a great deal when teachers make 1/200th of some of these sports contracts. And add to that a league that throws games for tv ratings and won't call fouls on favorite players, and you're getting the World Wrestling Federation on a baseketball court. This is the state of professional basketball.
The problem with marital affairs is the "victor" ends up with a partner w